National Deaf Children's Society Change Your World Consultation
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S3M-465, in the name of Cathie Craigie, on the National Deaf Children's Society's change your world consultation. The debate will be concluded without any question being put.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament congratulates the National Deaf Children's Society (NDCS) on its groundbreaking Change Your World consultation exercise, which represents the first ever discussion with young deaf and hearing-impaired people in Scotland and the United Kingdom about the issues and challenges which affect them; believes that deafness and other hearing impairments should not be a barrier for children in achieving their true potential; acknowledges the work of the NDCS in representing the interests of all deaf children and young people from birth until they reach independence; welcomes this opportunity to engage with young deaf Scots, and considers that as many young people as possible in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth and across Scotland with a hearing impairment should be encouraged to get involved and make their voice heard.
I am pleased to have the opportunity to debate the motion tonight. I thank all members who have signed the motion and all those who will take part in the debate.
It is appropriate that we debate the motion during learn to sign week, especially today when we have had the pleasure of meeting people from Donaldson's College, Deaf Action, the Royal National Institute for Deaf People and the National Deaf Children's Society. I am aware that many members took time to meet the representatives and staff of those groups this afternoon, when members were also given the opportunity to learn a few words of British Sign Language. To say that members were all fingers and thumbs when they tried to sign would be an understatement, but many of us at least tried. Our visitors were grateful for that and for the opportunity to meet us to tell us about the importance of BSL. If our visitors have to report on us, they will be right to report "Must keep practising" or perhaps even "Could do better".
A number of visitors in the gallery this evening have an interest in the issue because they have supported young deaf people for many years. The National Deaf Children's Society, which encouraged and supported me in lodging the motion, has supported deaf youngsters and their families for 60-odd years. The society was originally set up in London—in someone's kitchen—by a group of parents who wanted to support their deaf children. Those parents knew that more could be done to help their sons and daughters achieve their full potential. Thankfully, the ambitions that those parents had for their children back in 1944 have continued through subsequent generations of parents. Some 60 years on, and a few name changes later, the National Deaf Children's Society is one of the main arms of support for the families of deaf children in Scotland.
The motion highlights the society's change your world consultation exercise, which is the first ever discussion with young deaf and hearing-impaired people in Scotland and, indeed, in the United Kingdom. The consultation is about the issues and challenges that affect young deaf people. The society is to be congratulated on taking on the task of seeking to engage directly with all young deaf people and their families. I am sure that the deaf community will respond. I know that we as politicians look forward to seeing the outcomes of the consultation.
The motion also highlights the barriers that stand in the way of young deaf people reaching their full educational potential, so let me take the few minutes remaining to highlight that issue. "Could do better" is the phrase that I used earlier to describe members' attempts at signing. I think that we could do a lot better in supporting young deaf people.
Since 1999 I have led a number of members' business debates on subjects relating to deafness and support for deaf people—sign language interpreters, linguistic access and the achievements of deaf pupils in Scotland project. During that time we have made progress in a number of areas. I note, for example, the introduction of neonatal screening for every baby born in Scotland; the audiology review and the improvements that are anticipated following the acceptance of its recommendations; and the introduction of the graduate diploma course at Heriot-Watt University to train new BSL interpreters. All those measures are taking us in the right direction. However, in my opinion, we are not moving quickly enough and could do better.
The education service has the most significant role in determining the life chances of any child; the situation is no different for a deaf or hearing-impaired child. The achievements of deaf pupils in Scotland project, which the Scottish Executive funded between 2000 and 2005, was based in the department of educational studies at Moray House school of education in Edinburgh. The aim of the project, which was headed by Mary Brennan, was to gather detailed information on deaf pupils and their achievements. All of us who knew Mary know that she was a wonderful woman who gave 100 per cent commitment to trying to improve the life chances of deaf children. Sadly, she died prematurely, but she was driven by her desire to help deaf children. Her goal was to have a long-term database that could be used to influence, change and improve educational policy on delivering for deaf children.
The findings of the achievements of deaf pupils in Scotland project gave substance to the anecdotal evidence that deaf children tend to underachieve, despite the fact that there is no inherent reason that their achievements should not be comparable to those of their hearing peers. Data that were published recently in England confirm that fact. Only one in three deaf children gets five or more good GCSEs, compared with more than half of hearing children. There is no evidence that the situation is different in Scotland.
Only this week, I heard about the case of a young deaf boy in primary 7, who for the past six years has had the services of a communication support worker for four days a week. Sadly, because of resource implications, that provision has been cut to one day a week, in his most important year of primary school—not because he does not need the support or because he has not been thriving with it but because of competing demands in the school, where a primary 1 pupil now needs the support of a communication support worker. Without that support, the young boy will find it difficult to deal with the work that he must do in his last year of primary school and will be greatly disadvantaged.
On Thursday 13 September, Adam Ingram, the Minister for Children and Early Years, said in the Parliament:
"We will continue to act decisively, underpinned by our guiding principles of ensuring that every child gets off to the best start in life and, above all, focusing on the individual needs of the child and the learner and providing support to meet them."—[Official Report, 13 September 2007; c 1683.]
I know that the Minister for Communities and Sport and every other member in the chamber endorse that statement, to which all of us can sign up. However, the achievements of deaf pupils in Scotland project was stopped in 2005 because the Scottish Executive intended to gather information through the Scottish exchange of educational data programme. The project collected detailed data that allowed teachers of the deaf and parents properly to assess a child's achievements and collectively to assess the needs and achievements of pupils in Scotland and the policy change that was required to meet the needs of the deaf community. Since 2005 I have seen no data produced by the Scottish Executive. I ask the minister—who, I am sure, expects this kind of request in a members' business debate—to ensure that the data are made available to Parliament and the public as soon as possible.
The NDCS, on behalf of deaf children and their families, asks for no special treatment. It simply wants those children to have the same opportunities as every hearing child.
I congratulate Cathie Craigie on securing yet another debate on behalf of the deaf community. She has a history of doing so, and I am glad to support her on this occasion.
We all recognise that education is vital to the Government's plans. I do not want to take on the minister's role, but I point out that measures such as reducing class sizes and providing free, nutritious meals for youngsters in primary 1 to primary 3, which we have just debated, are all about improving the life chances of people in our communities by acting very early on in their lives. I hope that reducing class sizes will make it easier for teachers to pick up any issues that children might have, including deafness. We have to keep everything moving in that direction.
The consultation is greatly to be commended, as it is enormously important to find out what deaf children think. I hope that parents and teachers will also be consulted, because they will bring other issues to the debate.
I have received an e-mail from Scotland's Commissioner for Children and Young People, Kathleen Marshall, in which she welcomes the debate, expresses her support for our attempts to highlight the consultation and wishes it well.
I pass on apologies from Sandra White, who, as Cathie Craigie will acknowledge, has been a stalwart supporter of these issues. She has another engagement this evening. I also apologise to those who organised the sign language demonstration. It was in my diary, but I am afraid that Parliament does not always work the way that it is supposed to and I simply never made it.
Anne McGuire MP, the parliamentary under-secretary with responsibility for disabled people, said:
"The Government's aim is that by 2025 disabled people should have full opportunities and choices to improve their quality of life, and be respected and included as equal members of society."
Of course, in this context, we are talking about deafness as a disability. The minister went on to say:
"We can only realise that vision if we listen to the aspirations and voices of young disabled people—including people with hearing impairments—as they represent the future."
We cannot legislate away hearing disability—or, indeed, any other disability. Instead, we must recognise that we will improve the life chances of these youngsters and give them opportunities only by minimising the impact of their disability on their education. As a result, any approach that we take cannot be based on protocols of legislation or on telling people what to do. Instead, we must ensure that youngsters are put in an environment in which—in this case—their deafness problem does not limit their abilities and opportunities.
Indeed, we must do everything that we can to allow these youngsters to develop as fully as they can, because only by doing so will we eliminate discrimination in later life. I am afraid that, unless they enter the job market as able as they can be to contribute, it will be inevitable that they will meet discrimination later on.
I welcome the debate and I hope that the minister will take the matter forward. I am sure that the Government will pay very close attention to the findings of the change your world consultation and I hope that it will do its best to meet the aspirations that the consultation reveals.
I, too, thank Cathie Craigie for securing the debate on the issues and challenges surrounding young deaf and hearing-impaired people. The briefing from the National Deaf Children's Society was very helpful in providing information. It states that services for deaf children have not been placed at the top of the agenda in the Scottish Parliament. In response to that, I point out that there are MSPs, such as Cathie Craigie, who since 1999 have maintained an interest in the issue and have ensured that it is at least on the agenda. With more than 1,000 deaf children living in Scotland, and given the Parliament's commitment to reducing inequalities, I commend the consultation, and I have supported the motion.
MSPs past and present have been critical of consultation exercises. In general, people are unaware of consultations; those who are consulted are not those who are affected; and the conclusions and recommendations are often—allegedly—written before the exercise starts. In this case, however, there is a recognition that barriers exist and that we must understand more about the difficulties that young deaf people face in their daily lives. The consultation exercise is all about asking deaf children to tell us about the difficulties and obstacles that hinder them in achieving their potential. It cannot be better than that.
The results of the consultation will inform the strategic priorities of the National Deaf Children's Society. The question remains how much its conclusions and recommendations will influence the Government's policy developments for deaf children. I hope that the minister will take the opportunity, in winding up the debate, to outline the steps that he will take to work with the National Deaf Children's Society and the proposals that he will make to include the NDCS's recommendations in Government policy.
I hope that, as we seek to improve services for young deaf Scots, a comparison will be made between children who attend specialist schools for the deaf and children who attend other schools. Schools such as Donaldson's here in Edinburgh have an excellent reputation. I hope that out of the consultation exercise will come an action plan to ensure that deaf children from throughout Scotland, particularly in my area of the Highlands and Islands and in other remote and rural areas, gain the right to the full language, communication and access support that they need to communicate in the most appropriate way for them.
It is a matter of concern that schools such as Donaldson's operate below their capacity, given the specialists who are based there. They provide educational audiology, physiology, speech and language therapy, physiotherapy and occupational therapy. I hope that the new Donaldson's, which is due to open in January in Linlithgow with an increased capacity of 120 places, will be fully utilised.
It is concerning that information is available on the educational attainment of deaf children in England, but not in Scotland. It would be helpful to measure the academic achievements of deaf children in order to make a comparison and to determine where investment should be focused in future.
I was surprised to hear that there is no co-ordinated early years framework for deaf children in Scotland. I hope that the minister will take the opportunity to address that.
It would be positive if we could ensure that all families receive the support and advice that they need in order to communicate effectively with their children. The National Deaf Children's Society states that it depends on the good will of audiologists to pass on its details to the families of deaf children. Surely there is a better way—through the education system—to get that information to all families in Scotland, even in the most remote and rural areas.
I look forward to the results of the consultation and to the information that is produced being fed into the priorities of local and national Government.
I congratulate Cathie Craigie on securing this debate and I pay tribute to the huge amount of work that she has done on the matter over the years. I welcome a debate on the change your world consultation. Having worked alongside children and young people on a number of issues for many years, I recognise the value of listening to their opinions and hearing about their interests and their priorities. As adults, it is our duty to ensure that all children's rights are properly respected.
At this point, I apologise because I will have to leave the debate early, but for good reason: I am supposed to be with the cross-party group on children and young people to listen to three young children with disabilities and learning difficulties who are giving evidence. I thank the Deputy Presiding Officer for allowing me to speak earlier than I would otherwise have done, so that I can contribute to this debate.
Nigel Don mentioned Kathleen Marshall, whose statement, which was issued before the debate, states:
"The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child says that all young people have the right to express their views freely in all matters affecting them and to have those views given due weight. It is the adult world's responsibility to identify the barriers to free expression of views and to remove them."
There are currently only about 50 practising interpreters in Scotland. It is vital that we raise the status of BSL, as well as the number of trained interpreters. I apologise for not being at the BSL event today because I was at a conference, although two of my staff attended it.
We should be aiming to reach the point at which a deaf person can access an interpreter for their doctor's appointment or whatever, as well as having BSL interpretation for our debates in Parliament.
In relation to the NDCS consultation, I am sure that everyone involved with deafness will be delighted that such concerted efforts are being made to consult young deaf people so accessibly. The other day, an experienced person who works with deaf children told me that their experience of seeking the views of deaf children illustrated that the challenge is complex because young deaf people have, as a group, rarely been asked for their thoughts and opinions. Furthermore, communication differences can often get in the way and act as a considerable deterrent to the young person truly having their say. Needless to say, seeking their views is very much the first step. To convince young deaf people that we have taken their views on board and have genuinely responded to them will be the next challenge for us all.
I would like to mention family support. The NDCS briefing tells us about the lack of balanced information and positive support for families who have deaf children. An e-mail, from a parent of a deaf child, that I was passed reads:
"My child's Deafness has been denied by the experts from day one, most of his early years had been spent being passed from one specialist to another … I speak only from my own experiences and know that other parents have had much better ones, but it is fair to say that by the time he was 4 years old, I was at an all time low, my head was full of conflicting advice and the support that I was getting was minimal."
I hope that the minister will take on board the need to provide positive support to families with deaf children and to help promote the work of the NDCS. I also hope that the society's consultation is a huge success—I am sure that it will be—and that it shakes things up in order to help young deaf people change their world in a way that properly recognises their needs and potential.
I will close by saying thank you in BSL.
I am pleased to have this opportunity to draw the debate to a close and, as other members have done, I congratulate Cathie Craigie on securing the debate and the NDCS on its groundbreaking consultation exercise, aptly named change your world, in which young deaf and hearing-impaired people from across Scotland will, I hope, take part. I look forward to finding out more about the issues that have been raised.
We have had a good debate this afternoon. As other members have said, we all share the belief that deafness should not be a barrier to children achieving their full potential. As other members have done, I welcome the campaign's principles and its emphasis on encouraging deaf young people to get involved and to ensure that their voices are heard. The Government is committed to working closely with people and communities throughout Scotland to achieve change and to make improvements to their lives.
We recognise that it is particularly important to engage with people who may be marginalised—in this case by youth and deafness—which is why we are funding a policy and engagement post in the Scottish Council on Deafness to help improve the dialogue between deaf people and the Government. We are already seeing the impact of that work.
I also commend the National Deaf Children's Society for the support that it provides to families with deaf children throughout Scotland. I will highlight some of the ways in which the NDCS is making a particular contribution to our work. I am pleased that the NDCS is one of the 14 organisations that participate in the multiple and complex needs initiative, through which the NDCS has received funding to develop a project that involves working with Scottish Asian families who have deaf children. The project is designed to help counter the multiple disadvantages that we know black and minority ethnic disabled people and their families often face.
The NDCS is a valued member of the Government's British Sign Language and linguistic access working group, which is working with us to improve linguistic access for people who are born deaf or who acquire hearing loss. The group is developing a long-term strategy, and access to education for deaf children is a key area of its work. As part of that work, we have recently commissioned a scoping study of access for deaf children and young people and their pathway through school and further and higher education. The Scottish sensory centre and the NDCS are jointly undertaking the study on our behalf and the results will help to inform the work of the BSL and linguistic access working group. Those results will, I am sure, be reflected in the group's strategy document, which I look forward to having early next year.
As members will be aware, this week is learn to sign week. I commend the work that the Scottish Deaf Association is undertaking to raise awareness of the barriers and discrimination that deaf people face and to improve linguistic access for deaf people through the no need to shout … just learn to sign! campaign. As an employer, the Scottish Government is delighted to support the initiative and is offering BSL taster sessions for staff, which are provided by the Scottish Deaf Association. We will also encourage staff to look beyond the taster sessions and to undertake longer courses. I hope that the initiative will make a lasting contribution to the Government and its staff. I thank Donaldson's College and the NDCS for coming to Parliament today to offer BSL taster sessions to members. I am sure that members will join me in wishing Donaldson's College well as it prepares to move to its new premises in Linlithgow in January, as Mary Scanlon mentioned.
In opening the debate, Cathie Craigie asked about the statistics and data on achievement—or the lack of data, which might be a better way of putting it. I do not have the figures to hand and I am not aware in detail of the information that she discussed. The best thing for me to do is to go away and find out that information, after which I will write to her as soon as I can to give it to her.
I thank the minister. I was getting a wee bit bothered in my chair wondering whether he was going to address that, although I accept that he does not carry the information about in his back pocket. I will be happy to meet him later to discuss the issue.
I will write to Cathie Craigie. When she receives the letter, that might be a good opportunity for us to meet if that is appropriate. I am happy to make that offer.
Cathie Craigie talked about the audiology review, which was wide ranging and made many recommendations. On the back of that review, funding for audiology services and related services was increased.
Nigel Don, like Robin Harper, stated that he had missed the signing taster today. Unfortunately, I missed it, too—I knew it was on, but my diary did not allow me to attend. Nigel Don made a thoughtful speech that covered a lot of ground. He mentioned a UK Government report on disability, but that particular report contains no recommendations for the Scottish Government, as it dealt only with reserved matters. I say that in case members thought that it had direct implications for the Government in Scotland.
It is unfortunate that Robin Harper has had to leave because he made a crucial point when he mentioned the importance of BSL in daily life. We often forget that BSL can make a huge difference not only in offering access to the particularly difficult parts of life, but in offering access to the normal day-to-day parts of life. That goes not only for young people but for all people who are deaf or hearing impaired.
Mary Scanlon asked a very direct question on what the Government will do for deaf people. The Government is committed to improving linguistic access for deaf and hard-of-hearing people—I am sure that we would all agree that we should do that. As we consider our priorities over the coming period, we will continue to work closely with the key organisations that are active in deafness. We will do that through our BSL and linguistic access working group. Although the group covers all forms of deafness and hearing loss, an important part of our work will be in ensuring that deaf sign language users are able to access services and to participate in daily and public life as active citizens. I hope that we would all agree on the importance of that, too.
We will continue to work to reduce the exclusion that deaf people face. For example, we will raise awareness of BSL and encourage its uptake. We are considering ways of increasing the number of registered interpreters in Scotland. Our commitment to working in partnership will help to ensure that we take the right approach and that our work continues to be shaped directly by the views of deaf people and their organisations. I hope that the NDCS campaign, which was launched this week and which is the subject of this debate, will feed directly into the process.
I reiterate my thanks to NDCS and to all the other organisations that work with deaf and hard-of-hearing children across Scotland. Our ultimate aim is to ensure that deaf and hard-of-hearing people have the same opportunities as others to maximise their potential in daily and public life. I look forward to working with the deaf community in pursuit of that aim.
Meeting closed at 17:36.