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Chamber and committees

Finance Committee, 03 Dec 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, December 3, 2002


Contents


Cross-cutting reviews

The Convener:

Item 3 is a paper on cross-cutting expenditure reviews. It gives an overview of the cross-cutting work that has been done so far and highlights some of the experiences that have been gained and some of the difficulties that we have encountered as a result of the approach that we decided to take. The paper suggests possible alterations to that approach in the future, which is obviously merely advice for a future committee, which may or may not decide to adopt the proposed approach. Do members have any comments?

Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP):

I would like to make a couple of points. Paragraph 5 says:

"that the Committee advises its successor to conduct only one review at a time in future."

I think that that is right, but I also feel that reviews should be done by the full committee. I am not convinced that one or two members of the committee are sufficient, because that does not give us the breadth of experience that is required; the full committee should conduct reviews.

My other comment is about paragraph 6. I am not sure whether the first criterion is correct. It is putting the cart before the horse to say that the fact that a significant level of expenditure is placed against an objective should make it a criterion for review. We might want to query whether that is correct—in many cross-cutting areas, one cannot even be sure whether a significant level of expenditure is set against an objective. That is one of the problems that we face, so I am not sure that that criterion is appropriate.

I am not sure what the second criterion means, either. I do not know what its implications would be and I would like to see one or two examples before agreeing to that criterion.

Mr David Davidson (North-East Scotland) (Con):

I support Alasdair Morgan's position. One of the things that has pushed the committee towards looking at cross-cutting expenditure is the fact that there has been a distinct lack of transparency on how some of the policy objectives and funding streams come together. We pick up on a topic for a cross-cutting review not because money is being spent on it but because the topic is important in policy terms. We therefore want to get a handle on the funding streams that are involved and, through those, on the accountability of the various Executive departments and the appropriate ministers.

I also very much support the view expressed in paragraph 8, which is that the whole committee should take part in cross-cutting reviews. We have, in the past year, used a fragmented approach, the result of which has been that there has not always been enough depth in the committee's examination of matters.

The Convener:

There is probably general agreement on those points. One of the recommendations is that the committee should in future limit itself to one cross-cutting review at a time, which would mean that matters could be considered by the full committee rather than the committee's being split up.

Alasdair Morgan made a point about the second bullet point of paragraph 6, which recommends as a criterion

"the drivers for the policy objective being wholly or mostly devolved to Scotland".

Alasdair Morgan:

Yes. I am not clear what is meant by the

"drivers for the policy objective"

as opposed to the policy objective itself. Certain areas of legislation are reserved to Westminster, but beyond that everything else is within the powers of the Scottish Parliament. I am not clear what the recommendation means either in theory or in practice.

The Convener:

I interpret it to mean that cross-cutting reviews should be concentrated on areas in which we have our hands on the levers and that they should not move off into areas of policy that are for the Westminster Parliament rather than for the Scottish Parliament.

David McGill (Clerk):

Behind that recommendation was the fact that it struck us during the children in poverty review that, although the Executive has a clear objective on that issue, many of the methods of reaching that objective are contained within social security budgets, which are reserved to Westminster. It was therefore difficult to see how the committee could get involved in influencing such matters. That is why we thought that a sensible criterion for future cross-cutting reviews might be that the committee should get involved only in areas in which solutions are open to it.

Alasdair Morgan:

The problem is that many other issues, such as employment and housing, clearly have an impact on children in poverty. In deciding that the drivers for a policy objective were not devolved to Scotland, one might be assuming the result of the inquiry before one had undertaken the investigation. An objective might at first sight seem to be something over which Westminster has all the power, but it might, once we examine the problem, turn out that that is not the case. I am not making a point about devolved powers versus reserved powers; rather, I wonder whether that criterion is really helpful.

David McGill:

I take the point, but the paper mentions that the area for consideration could be "mostly devolved" to Scotland. It is a good point that other problems that the Scottish Parliament can do something about may feed into the policy objective.

We could ask the clerks to revise the wording so that it better explains the meaning. I agree that the wording is perhaps not as clear as it could be.

Mr Davidson:

I want to make a point about the final bullet point in paragraph 7, which mentions a matter of some importance to the Parliament, which is:

"the lack of an Official Report of evidence taken making reporting very problematic."

There is no point in the committee taking evidence if that evidence is not recorded and made available for public view. Private briefing sessions before taking evidence in public are fine and can be helpful, but in most cases evidence should be recorded.

The Convener:

The paper recognises that although the informal meetings were well intentioned, the reality is that formal meetings would have been more useful. That is certainly the case for evidence taking.

If members have no further comments, does the committee agree to those recommendations?

Members indicated agreement.