Public Petitions Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010

Official Report 605KB pdf

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Current Petitions

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School Bus Safety (PE1098 and PE1223)

Good afternoon and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2010 of the Public Petitions Committee. I welcome Mike Penning MP, who has come here from Westminster. We are delighted to have you here—you are probably the first Westminster minister to come before the committee. We also welcome Stewart Stevenson—I am glad to see you in front of the committee again—Chief Constable Mike Giannasi and Chief Superintendent Charlie Common. Thank you all very much for attending.

Cathie Craigie has sent her apologies, as she has had to go home unwell. I ask everyone to ensure that all mobile phones and other mobile electronic devices are switched off.

The first item is consideration of current petitions, and we are considering two petitions together. PE1098, by Lynn Merrifield, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to make provision for every school bus to be installed with three-point seat belts for every schoolchild passenger and to ensure that, as part of a local authority’s consideration of best value in relation to the provision of school buses, proper regard is given to the safety needs of the children. PE1223, by Ron Beaty, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to take all appropriate action, through amending guidance, contracts, agreements or legislation, to require local authorities to install on school buses proper safety signage and lights that are to be used only when necessary, when schoolchildren are on the bus, and to make overtaking a stationary school bus a criminal offence. I welcome Ron Beaty, who is in the public gallery.

We are making history today, with the first United Kingdom minister to attend the committee, and I am delighted to have you all here. At our meeting on 26 June, we agreed to invite the transport ministers from the Scottish and UK Governments as well as representatives from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and the Association of Chief Police Officers. Our intention was to bring all the witnesses here today, so that we could consider the issue in a useful way, across the legislatures and the different police forces. We are glad that everybody is here today to see how we can move things forward. We are all agreed that the key issue is that, in future, the number of fatalities in this area should be drastically reduced. Let us hope that we can move forward today in a positive way, which is what we like to think that the committee is all about.

Would any of our witnesses like to make some brief opening remarks?

I very much welcome the composition of the panel, which I am sure will be helpful. I do not expect that you will hear fundamental differences of view between Mike Penning and me, as we have been working fairly effectively on the issue—although that will be for committee members to judge. We have seen some significant trials taking place in Aberdeenshire, from which we will receive evidence in the not-too-distant future. The Government is also developing a new school transport safety toolkit to ensure that there is better understanding among local government and operators of both the opportunities to improve safety and the legal framework in which they operate. The committee may want to return to that.

It is a privilege to be here, in Scotland, representing the Government at Westminster. This is the second time that I have been here. In 1974, Her Majesty sent me to the Edinburgh tattoo when I was a junior guardsman, and it has been an interesting trip back.

I pay tribute to Mr Beaty, who is a dedicated man who works tirelessly not just for justice for his own family, but to make things better for other families. Without people such as Mr Beaty, legislation does not get changed. We live in a pluralistic society and need people who will put their heads above the parapet. Mr Beaty knows that he and I do not agree on everything, but one thing on which we agree—I think that I can speak on his behalf—is that we want to see fewer people injured and killed when they get on and off school buses or in any other part of the road safety agenda, which comes under my portfolio. As you know, the matter that the petitions deal with is not devolved. I hope that we can come on to how we can work together for the good of young people throughout the country.

14:15

I am the chief constable of Gwent Police in south Wales and I lead for the Association of Chief Police Officers in England and Wales on roads policing matters. You will not find a great deal of difference between the views of ACPO and those of ACPOS on the matter. Equally, you will not find a great deal of difference between the police service and the Government on the issues. For many years, we have worked together with a tripartite strategy to make our roads safer. The police service is as committed to road safety as the Government is. We are concerned to make our children as safe as they can possibly be while they use our roads.

I bring two perspectives. One is the England and Wales police service view, but I also bring an interesting view from Wales where, as you might be aware, a legislative competence order has been developed on the issue. Having read the documentation, I believe that there are lessons from Wales that you might be interested in. I am more than happy to share information on that if you wish.

I am here to represent ACPOS. I am chief superintendent with the local force—Lothian and Borders Police. In ACPOS, I have responsibility for speaking on casualty reduction. As members will know, in the area of casualty reduction, the eight Scottish forces are particularly interested in and active on child casualty numbers. We approach the issue on a partnership basis. We do not want to demonise the motoring public, providers of school transport or the many other partners who are involved in what is a huge challenge. One thing that would benefit us would be consistency among local authorities on what they require of school transport providers. We acknowledge potential difficulties with enforcement. We do not see enforcement as something that should interest only the eight Scottish police forces. We are interested in the subject and are delighted to take part.

Thank you.

I welcome Alison McInnes, who is transport spokesperson for the Liberal Democrats. Sorry Alison, I did not notice you earlier—thank you for coming.

We will move to questions. I have the privilege of being convener, so I will start off. Mr Penning, what came out of the meeting that I believe you had with Keith Brown, the schools minister, or has that meeting not happened yet?

Stewart Stevenson and I have met, and I met Mr Beaty this morning.

Right. So there have been no discussions with the schools minister. Mr Stevenson, will you clarify what liaison there has been on the issue?

As the committee is aware, Keith Brown, the schools minister, wrote to Mike Penning in June, seeking to find out what could be done about legislative competence in relation to seat belts. We subsequently became aware of what has happened in Wales and how that competence has been given there. I have been discussing that this morning, wearing my transport minister’s hat, with the minister from Westminster. It is clear that we can make progress. I invite Mike Penning to confirm that that is the case.

I had conversations with the Scotland Office in Westminster and asked whether, when I was before the committee today, I could indicate that we could devolve powers on school transport if the Scottish Government wished to take competence on that. The understanding that I have from the Scotland Office and my department is that we are willing to talk to the Scottish Government about devolving powers specifically around school transport, should the Scottish Government formally request that.

Would that be similar to what is happening in Wales?

Yes, it would. In a moment, Mick Giannasi will probably give you more information on what is happening there. I have been a minister for only five and a half months, but I was surprised when I received documents saying that Wales was taking competence on the matter but that Scotland had not done so. That is for my predecessors to explain, but I see no logical reason for that situation. I asked my counterparts in the Scotland Office whether they had a problem with the idea. Road safety nationally is not a devolved issue, but school transport is an area in which there could be benefits to communities and lives could be saved if the Scottish Government wished to take that competence. I have not formally been asked for that yet, but if the Scottish Government wishes to do so, it should receive a positive response.

We have engaged with the subject previously, without getting any sense that such a request, if made, would have been accepted. The situation is different now, and I will certainly work with my colleague Keith Brown on the issue. We are now in a much better place.

In your opening statement, you talked about how close the Scottish Government is to the point of issuing the safety toolkit to local authorities. How close are you, and what are the petitioners’ views on the toolkit?

I will not seek to put words in the petitioners’ mouths. We are reaching the conclusion of the development of the toolkit, and we have agreed to give Mr Beaty the opportunity to review it before it is issued. We have sought to incorporate the information and views that Mr Beaty has given us, as he represents a substantial, UK-wide body of interest, not just Scottish interests. If he has any further useful comments, we will make sure that they, and his views, are reflected properly.

We are certainly looking to issue the toolkit within a few months.

I am glad to hear that. However, you will be aware that, as recently as 29 September, Transport Scotland said in a letter that the toolkit would be issued in autumn 2010, so the timescale seems to have slipped to winter 2010. Why is that?

Today is a beautiful autumnal day.

But two months from now, it will be December.

I said that the toolkit will be issued within a couple of months. I do not want to box Mr Beaty into a particular timescale until he has had the opportunity to see the toolkit. To be absolutely clear, I am not seeking to create a delay; the toolkit will come out at the earliest possible moment. It is important that it comes out in a form that properly reflects the concerns that have been expressed to the committee by Mr Beaty and others, and I will not set an artificial date for that. It is as urgent for me as I know it is for Mr Beaty and the committee.

Are you content that sufficient priority has been afforded to the development of the toolkit by Transport Scotland?

I believe so. The team that is responsible for road safety has undertaken a great deal of useful work in recent times, and there has been wider interest from the other UK jurisdictions and beyond in the work that we have done on road safety. We have been very energetic on and engaged with the subject. I accept that there is always the temptation to say that something more could be added, but we are now at the point at which we are ready to issue the toolkit. As I said, it is important that Mr Beaty, who does this sort of thing pro bono and has other calls on his time, has the proper amount of time to consider the draft before it is issued.

I take that on board, but given what you have said, can you confirm to the committee today that there is a commitment to issue the developed toolkit during the winter, before the beginning of 2011?

Yes.

Thank you for that commitment.

Thank you, minister. I am sure that you accept that the issue has been going on for quite a time now and that, during that time, there have been further accidents. We are all concerned about that.

I am glad to see everyone here today. As I said at a previous meeting, I have been on the Public Petitions Committee for 18 months, and the issue has been going on since long before I arrived. I share the frustration of the petitioners. I will not repeat what I have said previously, but I think that we should get everyone in a room and lock the door until we have sorted things out. It is frustrating that the issue has been passed between local authorities, the Scottish Government, the British Government and the bus companies.

It is obviously very welcome that all local authorities will be given much better information in future, but we have 32 of them and many more bus operators. Who will monitor whether they use the information, and who will follow it up if they do not? Their having the information and reaching agreements is all very well, but what if they do not stick to them?

With your permission, convener, I will elaborate on what I intend to do after I leave this meeting and return to Westminster. Some things can be done relatively quickly. As I read the papers, I was really surprised by some of the comments from local authorities, not just in Scotland but around the UK, about what they can and cannot do, because the legislation is specific on that. A minimum standard is required under UK law for the transportation of pupils, whether to and from school or to and from any other activity. Clearly, I need to send out guidance to local authorities once again and tell them in no uncertain terms what they are required to do. I will copy that guidance to the committee and to Mr Beaty, as well as to the minister, Stewart Stevenson.

There are areas on which we need to tighten up, one of which is signage. Some of the photographs and things that I have seen for myself show that there is confusion, complacency, ignorance or even unwillingness to apply the law when it comes to signage on vehicles. We know what happens if other drivers know that a vehicle is a school bus. We do not have the American yellow bus system, which perhaps we would all like, but we are where we are.

If we are to use retrosignage, which means that the reflective light is stored and then comes back out, it cannot be used behind glass, because of refraction, nor can it be used behind tinted glass; it has to be on the side of the vehicle that drivers can see, and it must be taken off when the vehicle is not being used for school transport. To me, that is not rocket science; it is something that I can do straight away.

We need to enforce that, not only through local authorities but through parents, who have responsibilities, too—people power is being shown here today—and the police, who must take action when it is needed. We do not want to use the big stick all the time, but if companies continually ignore the fact that they should remove signage when the vehicle is not being used as a school bus, we will ensure that they do not ignore it any longer.

We can do that straight away before we hand over powers, if we are requested to do so, because it is a national issue. I am here before this committee today, but the issue applies around the country.

Even though we have a very good safety record in this country, one person injured or one life lost is one too many. We must ensure that we move forward. The signage issue that Mr Beaty raises in his petition is something that we can move on quite quickly.

So that is a commitment that you will be in charge of the overall monitoring and of ensuring that where things can be enforced, they will be enforced.

I cannot monitor. My job is to be the legislator. The job of enforcing falls with my police colleagues and local authorities.

It is interesting that you said that parents should also have an input, because I have worked with schools in Glasgow where the children have turned into traffic wardens—under the guidance of their teachers, obviously. They are so upset and worried about the consequences of not just school buses but teachers parking on the zig-zag lines outside schools that they have turned into traffic wardens who monitor parking themselves.

We have all dealt with the daily issue of parents or loved ones dropping off children at school and parking outside schools in our constituencies. Sometimes we have to use the big stick and send constables down to the schools, but we cannot do that every day. However, parents, guardians and loved ones have a moral responsibility for children. If they see the law being broken regularly, they should say something. They would not let their children’s lives be put at risk in their own home or anywhere else. The fact that they have handed over responsibility to a school or a local education authority does not mean that they can abdicate responsibility for doing what they need to do.

14:30

A rather surprising fact that has emerged as a result of Mr Beaty’s petition is that legislation on signs for school buses does not prescribe the size of the sign—it prescribes only the minimum size. If we make the sign bigger, it becomes more obvious. Had it not been for the work that has been undertaken, that would probably never have emerged, because all the signs were the same and everybody thought that that was their size. Aberdeenshire Council has shown the way in putting much bigger signs on buses. It has taken the simple attitude that if it could not find anything that said it could not do that, it would do it. That was an excellent initiative and a positive engagement in safety.

My question is about the point that Mr Penning just made about the size of reflective notices. The notice displayed on a minibus carrying schoolchildren is the same size as that on a 100-seater double decker. Mr Stevenson, are discussions taking place to alter that regulation and ensure that the signs on the bigger vehicles are more appropriate to the size of the vehicle?

It is worth saying that the power to change the regulations lies with my colleague on my right, Mr Penning, rather than with me. However, it is important that the process is flushed out and that there is no prohibition on making the sign appropriate to the vehicle. We are trying to make sure that local authorities are aware of the opportunities that they have to contribute to and enhance safety. However, if the committee felt that we should be more prescriptive, that might have to be looked at more carefully. If we were to prescribe the size of signage according to different vehicle sizes, there might be a risk of unintended side effects. However, I am sure that we all accept the principle that Mr Munro enunciates: we should have appropriate signage for vehicles.

It is a matter for Westminster, but I am conscious that we need to look at the evidence base. It is easy to say, “We think the sign should be bigger for one vehicle than for another.” We in Westminster will look at some of the work that has been going on in Aberdeenshire. Nothing is fixed in statute—well, it is currently fixed, but we can move it.

Minibus legislation is slightly different from that for coaches and double-decker buses, simply because of seat belt legislation. The key question is whether the legislation is fit for purpose and does the job that it is meant to do. If we find that the signage is not of a size that gives other drivers the opportunity to understand who is likely to be on the bus, we will look at that.

The other point is that we must not sanitise the issue. If the signs are to work, they must be on buses that are moving children; they must not be just left on buses that go on to the commercial network for the rest of the day. As happens in my constituency, some school buses do the school trip and then augment the local bus network for the rest of the day until they return to school later. In my part of the world, the signs come off the buses after the school run, probably because I am the minister and, as you can imagine, I would not be happy if they did not.

Perhaps the police should also pick up the point that when signs are on display on the vehicle, they should not obscure or impede the driver’s vision. I am sure that that could be taken care of. On some vehicles that are used for school transport, there are different logos and signs on the back and sometimes the front of the vehicle, which might diminish the effectiveness of any reflective sign that indicates that the vehicle is carrying schoolchildren.

I have already said that I do not think that we should allow such signs to be on the inside of the glass—and I will change the rules and regulations around that—simply because that would not do the job. As you say, it could obscure the driver’s vision of the road. The reflective nature of the sign would be affected by the glass or perspex on the vehicle. As I said, we will look at what is going on in Aberdeenshire. The trial that has been undertaken there shows that enlarging the signs works. We will see whether we can move things forward.

Thank you.

At the moment, if police officers witness anything that they feel impedes a driver in going about his driving duties, they do something about it. I also echo the comment that was made earlier about the role of the local authority. If a local authority has entered into a contract with a transport provider, we would ask what it is doing to police that contract itself. If the contract requires signage, the customer, first and foremost, has a role in ensuring that the provider complies with their wishes.

Thereafter, as we do at the moment, we would enter into some joint work with the local authority. There is obviously a practical difficulty in enforcing things that would take school buses off the roads and leave groups of schoolchildren standing at the side of the road. We currently have days of action, both north and south of the border, on which we work alongside local authorities, and we will continue to take that type of commonsense approach.

I echo the comments that have been made. The legislation is fairly broad and permissive, and local authorities could go much further in specifying what signage they would like to see on vehicles. As Mr Penning said, the legislation is about minimal signing, and local authorities could go much further. They could add hazard warning lights or make existing hazard warning lights bigger—they could even create coloured signs. Provided that they comply with the road vehicles lighting regulations, there is little restriction on what can be done.

In our view, enforcement has a part to play but it is much more about partnership and voluntarily finding the right conditions based on evidence, and then agreeing with local authorities that they will insist on those conditions being met as part of the contract. The role of the police is really to ensure that there is enforcement that substantiates that voluntary contract. As my colleague said, we run a national operation in England, Wales and Scotland that is called operation coachman. In the past two years, about 4,000 vehicles have been stopped and checked so that compliance with the legislation could be confirmed. We see a high level of non-compliance. This year, for example, some sort of illegality has been involved in 31 per cent of the 2,311 buses, minibuses or coaches that have been stopped. That has not necessarily involved signage—it could have been to do with insurance or tyres.

There is a danger that overregulating and introducing too much legislation in a very competitive industry forces people who are on the edges of their commercial ability into cutting corners in places where they should not do that. We have seen the same in the haulage industry, in which reputable companies find it difficult to compete because of the legislation. My concern is that overregulation forces people into cutting the wrong corners, which may not be as visible as the signage.

There needs to be a balance and the requirement should be based on evidence. Our preference is for voluntary compliance supported by enforcement where that is necessary.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. In our previous discussions, we have examined the fitting of seat belts on school transport. Does Stewart Stevenson know of any local authorities in Scotland that use buses or coaches that do not have any form of seat belt fitted in school transport contracts?

I am not sure that I know of any that do not have seat belts. Moray Council now has a universal requirement for seat belts. I add a note of caution, however, as seat belts can be two point or three point. If everybody had two-point seat belts, that would be significant. However, there is then the issue of ensuring that the seat belts are used. The committee—like other committees—has heard me say before that I regularly find myself the only person on a bus who is wearing a seat belt where those are fitted. We must ensure that people use them. We are a substantial way away from having the desired level of seat belt fitting and even further away from the level of seat belt usage that we want, which would increase safety substantially.

Am I right in thinking that at the moment there is no obligation on local authorities to ensure that all bus operators that operate school transport contracts have two or three-point seat belts fitted?

That is correct. Clearly, the risks associated with the use of coaches, buses, minibuses and various forms of school transport vary depending on whether we are talking about urban or rural areas, high-speed or low-speed roads and so on. In general, it is appropriate for local authorities to make decisions that are appropriate to their needs, but what has happened in Moray certainly shows that it is possible to take a position different from the one that prevails. We will continue to work on this matter with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, which is the co-ordinating body for local authorities, and the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives and Senior Managers, which represents the senior people in local authorities, but the key thing is to ensure that authorities are aware of what they can do, because there is an information gap.

Does anyone else have any comments on this issue?

Buses that transport children to and from school must, by law, be fitted with lap belts. Following the minister’s comments, I point out that any grey areas in the legislation with regard to what local authorities can or cannot do will be alleviated in literally a few weeks’ time when I write to them—and to the committee—telling them the exact situation to ensure that they cannot in any shape or form say that they have not been informed, that they are not sure of the current position or whatever. The facts will be there in black and white. Of course, it will be for others, particularly parents, to follow up the issue. After all, it is very important that they are aware of and understand the current situation. As I say, however, lap belts will be the minimum required on a bus going to and from school.

In the likes of Edinburgh, large numbers of schoolchildren travel to school on service buses. That is a different issue, but the safety of those children cannot be overlooked.

We might be able to learn some interesting lessons from what has happened in Wales, where there have been similar emotive accidents involving children on school transport. For example, in 2005, a young child was killed in a minibus in my own area, which led to a campaign very similar to Mr Beaty’s. In 2009, the Welsh Assembly Government decided to make a legislative competence order to deal with the matter instead of issuing a voluntary code and has now introduced the Proposed Safety on Learner Transport (Wales) Measure, which addresses precisely the issues that the committee is considering.

Under the measure, local authorities will be required to provide either two or three-point seat belts in all transport taking schoolchildren to and from school and ensure that closed circuit television is fitted in every vehicle used in such circumstances and that there is adult supervision of the children on the vehicle. As has been quite rightly pointed out, it is one thing to fit seat belts; it is a very different thing to encourage people to wear them. Although the law requires anyone over 14 to wear seat belts on passenger vehicles, the same does not apply on public transport, and the Welsh Assembly Government has introduced a voluntary behavioural code to support the composite framework, which has been in place since January 2010. The code, which covers five to 19-year-olds using learner transport, gives schools the power to take disciplinary action against those who contravene the code of conduct on buses to and from school and sets a series of standards. Indeed, picking up a comment made by one of your colleagues, I should say that it contains an interactive element in which children and parents have been involved in setting and keeping to those standards.

The measure has five elements: first, the specification of vehicles that must be used—and although signage is not included, it could be; secondly, the requirement to fit CCTV; thirdly, the requirement to carry out risk assessments of all school transport; fourthly, training for drivers; and fifthly, details of supervision on buses. It will be in place by August 2011 and is supported by the recommendation that the minimum requirement for children in primary and junior schools be three-point seat belts and, for secondary school children two-point seat belts. I repeat, however, that that is a recommendation, not a legislative requirement.

The National Assembly for Wales is geared up to pass that measure, which we welcome, because it will make what was a voluntary code compulsory. We will of course continue to enforce the position. Operation coachman will continue alongside the competence order, to ensure that operators comply with the legislation.

14:45

I have a follow-up question for the chief constable and the chief superintendent. What is the police view on school transport buses using hazard flashing lights when dropping off and picking up schoolchildren at designated pick-up points?

When a bus has stopped and passengers are alighting from it, legislation permits it to use its hazard warning lights. Legislation also enables buses to attach a second set of lights, whose size is not restricted—the lights can be as big as people wish. That should be within the code. When drivers are trained—as they will be in Wales—they should be trained to use such lights in those circumstances. Of course, as the minister says, we must ensure that other motorists recognise that new and unique event as a risk. If we do not enforce arrangements in that way, they will be less impactive.

I echo those comments. One of our concerns is about the disincentive from the additional cost of anything that is recommended. All vehicles are fitted with hazard warning lights, so it makes sense to use them.

Speaking as an experienced officer rather than ACPOS spokesman, I am attracted to the idea of having a second adult on board—not on minibus-sized vehicles, but on coach-sized vehicles and larger buses. While the vehicle is in motion, it is unreasonable to expect the driver to concentrate on driving and police what is going on in the coach. I would be in favour of anything that we could do about that.

There is value in using flashers and in taking the opportunity to fit additional flashers. However, we have research that suggests that when most drivers see a vehicle—even a bus—with flashers going, they believe that the vehicle has broken down. The wider issue is ensuring that drivers consider what they are being presented with.

Particularly in the north and south-west of Scotland, a further issue is the use of flashing lights on the road at level-crossings, where it is clear that drivers are confused about the flashing and alternating red lights. As that is not the steady red light that people associate with a signal that they must stop, people think that it means that they should prepare to stop.

A wider issue is the use of warning lights on the road and how drivers interact with and interpret what they mean. We must be slightly cautious in imagining that we have completed the job when we encourage drivers of school buses simply to put on the flashers. That would be useful, because it would indicate an abnormal situation to other drivers, but the evidence on whether those drivers work out what is abnormal is a little uncertain—I see our police colleagues nodding at that. We need to be slightly cautious.

Does Mr Penning have views on what he has heard from the other witnesses about the use of flashing lights on school transport vehicles? Could he or his department do anything to highlight the situation that they have described?

Absolutely. As I said, I was surprised by the lack of knowledge among some—but not all—local authorities about the powers that were available, should they wish to use them. Drivers have the power now not only to use the existing flashing hazard lights on their vehicles but to augment them with other lights, provided that they are within the road traffic acts—we do not put red lights on the front, for obvious reasons.

I hope that, through the guidance that we will put out as soon as possible, we can start to break down some of the myths about what can and cannot be done. I talked to Mr Beaty earlier and have read his correspondence. It is worrying that local authorities that he contacted said, “We can’t do that.” Actually, they can. That is worrying because people in those authorities are in charge of our children. Both my girls went to school on a school transport bus. As a new minister, perhaps I am slightly naive, but I would have thought that they would have known. However, they will know.

I want to follow up on the issue of flashing lights. I do not know whether you have received any feedback from Northern Ireland, but I gather that the technical specifications for school buses that have been issued by the Northern Ireland Department of Environment say that flashing warning lights must be activated while children are getting on or off buses and for between four and eight seconds after the bus door is closed. Is that working? Would such an approach have merit here?

I will get feedback on that, as it obviously comes within my competence, but I have not yet received back any information on it.

I have no idea how long that has been the position for, but it would be worth following it up.

It is a bit early to say something about that, but that is where Northern Ireland has gone. We will know better soon.

We have a copy of the Northern Ireland Department of Environment’s technical specification requirements for warning signs and lights on school buses. I do not know whether Fergus Cochrane wants to say something about them. It is interesting to hear about the different situations in Wales and Northern Ireland. That is one reason why we all needed to get together around the table. Often, we simply do not know what each other is doing.

Northern Ireland has devolved power to deal with this competence. It is interesting that Wales has gone down a slightly different avenue, although its approach still fits within the national road safety framework, which sits within my ministerial remit. Should the Scottish Government come to me with a request, we will negotiate with it how to progress matters. I emphasise that powers are being used in Northern Ireland that exist now for any local authority in the country. To be fair, the only difference is in the restriction on flashing light times. I think that there are times in Northern Ireland. That is a local matter, and such an approach can still be taken elsewhere in the UK. I think that Northern Ireland is the only place where that is part of the competence and where times have been written in.

It might be useful to get comments on the guidelines and on what happens in Northern Ireland, on what is being done in Wales, and on what is being thought about in England.

Perhaps I could write to the committee to confirm those things.

Thanks very much. It would be useful to get feedback on that.

I picked up that there is concern about difficulties in areas in which normal service buses are being used. How is that got round in talking about a mandatory set-up in Wales?

That is still an issue that is being discussed. I understand that the original legislative competence order did not include the use of service buses for school trips during the day and that it purely covered trips to and from school. That is not the same issue, but it is a similar issue. A service bus could be used during a school trip during the day, and it would not need seat belts and would not come within the legislative competence order. A campaigner has challenged the order in the consultation phase, and the matter is now being reconsidered. As recently as a week ago, there was a debate on the issue in the Welsh Assembly. There is an on-going discussion, and there is a question about whether the legislative competence order should be extended specifically to include service buses that are used during the day.

The issue of service buses more generally is challenging. When the seat belt legislation was being designed, it was decided for pragmatic reasons that service buses could not feasibly be subject to it because of the short journeys and the interactions between the passengers in them. For those reasons, service buses are not required to have seat belts. That is a complication. In Wales, only around a third of schoolchildren travel to school using organised school transport; the rest go by other means or use service buses. Therefore, we are dealing with quite a significant risk, but it is not the whole risk. There are other issues that are far more complicated than transport to and from school.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. I welcome Mr Penning, in particular. I am one of those who really wanted to see you here. That is not to suggest any unwillingness on your part to come; it is just that we have had problems in the past. At a round-table discussion some time ago, we recognised that it was the interaction between the two Parliaments and the local authorities that caused many of our problems, so it is wonderful to see you here.

I venture to suggest that the very fact that you are here has clarified some thinking. I had intended to ask you whether you would devolve competence, but you have forestalled me. That is wonderful—thank you very much. It gives me the opportunity to ask Stewart Stevenson whether he will ask for that to happen; he may wish to reflect on that. We have all recognised that the different legislatures and the different competences have been a problem. It would be enormously helpful if the relevant responsibility could be devolved so that we have a slightly smaller number of ports of call. It is good to see how well the two Governments are working together. That is welcome.

Most of the technical questions that I wanted to ask have been covered by a group of people who obviously know the subject very well. There is just one remaining issue that I am aware of, which is paintwork. Are there regulations that say that signs must be reflective? If there are not, should there be?

I apologise if I sound like an anorak, but I have read a vast amount on the subject over the past few weeks. The committee might not know that I was a fireman for some 11 years and drove rescue tenders to road traffic incidents, so reflective fire engines are something that I grew up with.

I apologise for using technical terminology, but there is something called retroreflection. Signs on school buses should be retroreflective, which means that, instead of just reflecting light straight back as a mirror would do, they should absorb the light and then throw it back. If they are damaged or if, as I mentioned earlier, they are behind glass or plastic, or are not in a particularly good condition, that will affect their ability to reflect light, particularly headlights. There are regulations, which are very strict and should be enforced as strongly as possible because, these days, unlike when we were children—I apologise if you are slightly younger than I am—the technology is there. Signs should no longer give just a straight reflection. It was fascinating for me to see some of the research and development work that is being done on how a sign can absorb light and then spring it back out. To me, as a non-scientist, that is quite complicated. Retroreflection works, but if such a sign is put behind glass or Perspex, it will be affected by the reflective nature of the surface.

I do not know whether Stewart Stevenson wants to take up the gauntlet that was thrown down by Mr Don.

I was asked a specific question that only I could answer, which I think was whether I would ask for competence to be devolved. Just for clarity, it would be my colleague Keith Brown who would be likely to do that. He and I will have to have that discussion and to co-ordinate any action, because he is the minister who has been writing to Mike Penning on the subject.

In the discussion that Mike and I had before coming to the meeting, it became apparent that that opportunity would be available. Alas, I did not have the opportunity to speak to Mr Brown in advance of the meeting, so I cannot speak on his behalf, but the committee can be assured that we will have that conversation as soon as possible, which I would expect to be no later than tomorrow evening.

I have one general observation to make. If my memory serves me correctly, some European work has been done on daylight running with headlights on, which I think will probably be reflected in UK legislation in due course; Mike Penning might say more on that. Regardless of whether we are talking about stored light or simple mirror technology, the reflective nature of a sign depends on how much light falls on it. I have always been a believer in vehicles having their front lights on, but that is a non-professional view—it is a driver’s view. There are some further relevant aspects of the issue that may emerge later.

15:00

I apologise if the honour and privilege of appearing before the committee is not something that my predecessors have taken advantage of, but I am not responsible for previous ministers. I was invited and I am here. I think that Danny Alexander has given evidence to a committee as well, so I am the second Westminster minister to give evidence at Holyrood. That is right and proper. Sometimes it is difficult; do not get me wrong. I am due to leave here, stay overnight in Lancaster, then go to Merseyside, fly back to London and go to St Petersburg. It is difficult but, when it is possible, it is right and proper to come. I had a conversation with the Prime Minister and I know that he thinks that too.

There is an issue with the daylight running of lights. I am a motorcyclist—I am lucky enough to hold nearly all the UK driving licences, courtesy of Her Majesty’s armed forces, I must add—and I always have my motorbike headlights on because it makes other drivers more aware that I am around. We still have a big problem with motorcycles, although that is a separate issue. One of the few areas in which the number of fatalities is going up is motorcycles; the number of fatalities rose by 4 per cent last year when the use of motorcycles rose by only 2 per cent, so the figure is going in the wrong direction.

I have taken the opportunity to talk to some of my European counterparts about this. If we run with headlights on all the time, there is an emissions issue. Vehicles do not run as efficiently with their headlights on. I know that Saabs and Volvos have always done it, but if all vehicles run with their headlights on, the engine is under more strain and the CO2 emissions are worse. It is not just as simple as saying that we should switch on all the lights, because that puts a bigger burden on car engines.

As a lifelong Saab and Volvo driver, I understand the point, but people have always been able to see me coming.

Yes, or hear you, in the case of a Saab.

My transport plans are, unfortunately, less sophisticated than the minister’s. I came from Stoke and I am going back to Newport.

I discovered two things during my research. Some interesting research is being done in Sweden on making the bus stop the source of attracting the driver’s attention. In that system, schoolchildren carry some sort of radio-activated device in their satchels so that when they get off the bus, the bus stop illuminates and has signs on it that attract the driver’s attention. That is interesting research; I do not think that it has been fully evaluated yet, but it is worth watching.

I will just offer the second idea. I talked about operation coachman in Wales, which is the enforcement initiative. I guess that it is very similar to operations that are being carried out in England and Scotland. The operations are multi-agency, so local authorities, trading standards and the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency in England and its equivalent in Scotland are involved. We also involve pressure groups and campaigners, such as the BUSK Wales group, which has a similar function to Mr Beaty’s group. When those groups come along, it heightens enthusiasm and the commitment to robust enforcement. The committee might want to consider that in its development of ideas and objectives, as involving people who have a personal passion delivers better results.

Thank you.

Would it be useful if I said something about something that has just been said? As members know, there has been a see me pilot in Aberdeenshire, which I think might have used the technology to which Chief Constable Giannasi referred. We have not yet received the evaluation. Some positives have come out of it, but it is not yet clear cut that it will deliver the best value. We will make sure that the committee is made aware of that.

First, I apologise for being late to the committee meeting this afternoon. I have been moving considerably slower than usual between commitments; I sustained a sports injury yesterday because I was overcompetitive at a game of badminton.

I want to pick up on Chief Superintendent Common’s comment about a second person on the bus. As a teacher who drove minibuses full of schoolchildren around the countryside for more than two decades, I thoroughly sympathise with that point. When there was another teacher on the bus, there was never any problem. However, on one occasion, when there was no other teacher on the bus, and one child was out of control at the back, in my judgment, he was placing everyone’s life at risk, and I had no alternative but to stop, throw him off, and give him his bus fare back from where we were. Obviously, that is not an option for many school bus drivers. That is why I personally think that it should be mandatory to have a second person on a bus.

My question is for the police representatives. I have a suspicion that, in advance of the meeting, you had a wish list of things that you would have liked to have heard from the ministers. As you have the advantage of having two ministers beside you, is there anything remaining that you would like to hear from them?

Not on the particular subject that we are discussing. There are many other subjects on which we have discussions, but there is clear common ground on the issues that we are discussing.

I was careful not to say that there should be a second teacher on buses. If there is to be a second adult on all the buses, the challenge is about who might take on that role. I am alert to the pressure on the timetable. That is one for the future. From the Scottish police perspective, we are looking for consistency. As I said at the outset, we are looking to work with motorists, rather than against them.

Thank you for allowing me to attend today, convener. I cannot usually attend the committee’s meetings, as I have Transport, Infrastructure and Climate Change Committee meetings on a Tuesday. However, as a member for North East Scotland, I have taken a keen interest in the two petitions.

I have two questions. The first is about seat belts, which need to fit to work properly. I am conscious of the recent legislation on booster seats in private cars. Do any issues arise from that need to have properly fitted seat belts, especially for primary school children travelling on buses?

You have touched on what is probably the most difficult issue, especially the call for three-point seat belts. The reason why we have booster seats and such things for young people in cars is that it is difficult to fit three-point seat belts to young people and it can be dangerous if they are improperly fitted. Apart from the issue of anchoring three-point seat belts in vehicles that were not designed to have them, one of my biggest concerns about having a requirement for three-point seat belts rather than lap belts is about the dangers of an ill-fitting seat belt. As a fireman, I have seen the sort of injuries that sadly can occur as a result of an ill-fitting three-point seat belt that has been used with the best intentions. That will live with me for the rest of my life, and I am sure that the two policemen who are here have seen that too. An ill-fitting seat belt is a very dangerous thing.

There are real issues. I cannot imagine that, given the peer pressure on school buses, booster seats will be used. Kids are difficult. The best approach at the moment is to use lap belts. There is a reason why we have taken that position. Technology has not moved forward much, although it is moving. For example, the straps can move and can be dropped down. In cars, for instance, the straps on the B-post can normally be dropped down. However, that cannot be done on any bus that I know of. It is a difficult issue.

I have nothing to add.

My other question relates to the toolkit that Mr Stevenson talked about drawing up. What is the content of that? I am mindful of the most recent school bus crash, which was in the Mearns in the north-east of Scotland. Have you given any consideration to further guidance on the use of double deckers on rural routes? Will that be tackled in the toolkit?

The issue of double deckers is complex. They must meet stability requirements to be allowed on the road in the first place, so we should accept that double deckers are a safe and adequate way of travelling. In relation to school transport, the issue is more likely to be about whether children can be supervised adequately, particularly on the upper deck, where they are well out of the sight and hearing of the driver, who is perhaps the sole adult on the bus. That is certainly an issue. I have not yet seen the draft of the safety toolkit, so forgive me if I cannot give you a specific answer. However, I can make sure that I give the committee an answer during the next week and copy you into that.

Thanks, minister.

Speaking as an MP with a London overspill town and a beautiful rural area in the Chilterns in my constituency, I would say that capacity is the issue. Every one of the double-decker buses that come into the four schools in my constituency that have bussing in is packed, so cost implications would arise from having to have twice the number of vehicles. I understand the consequences of the particular crash that you have mentioned—although I have not seen the report—but it is very rare for a double-decker bus to tip over. It all started with the Routemaster buses, which are coming back to London—we will have a new Routemaster quite soon. They are very difficult to tip. I do not know what the circumstances of the crash were, but the cost implications for the LEA in my constituency would be astronomical if we had to move away from using double deckers.

I thank the witnesses for coming, especially Mr Penning and Chief Constable Giannasi. I know that you have travelled a considerable distance—and that you have further to go, Mr Penning.

I ask committee members for their views on where we go with the petition from here.

This has been a very useful evidence session, and I echo your thanks, convener, to all the witnesses on the panel.

I think that we should keep the petition open. It would be useful for the committee to be kept up to date with progress regarding possible representations by the Scottish Government—whether in the shape of Mr Stevenson or Keith Brown or both—so as to devolve responsibility in this area, as has happened in Wales.

Secondly, Mr Stevenson made a commitment that the toolkit—the guidance—would be in place before the end of this year. I welcome that. We should be kept up to speed on how the guidance is working.

I forgot to make this point earlier, but I am sure that Mr Stevenson will be more than willing to respond to it. We need to have some idea of the effectiveness of the toolkit or guidance. I would therefore like monitoring to be done in that regard. I know that signage is part of the toolkit and the guidance, but we should, if possible, assess how the guidance is working out before the end of this session. If things are not working out with respect to signage, I would like the Government to say whether it might consider prescription in this area, rather than guidance.

It would be helpful for the committee to explore those issues. Progress is being made, and I am sure that my colleagues will welcome that, but we have to keep the situation under consideration.

Presumably, Mr Penning will be able to keep us updated with regard to the changes to signage that are currently—

I intend to change the position nationally to make it much better focused. Of course, if the powers are devolved, you will be able to take the matter further than I intend to do—regarding the size of the signage, anyway, although the whole matter of moving it outside the cab and on to the front and back of the vehicles correctly is something that we will deal with nationally.

It would also be helpful if Stewart Stevenson could apprise us of the outcome of the pilot on school bus stops in Aberdeenshire—when he knows about it.

I am happy to do that. You should understand that it is an Aberdeenshire Council pilot, which we are part of, so I will rely on colleagues in the council. There is certainly no intention for the output of that pilot to be secret—that is for sure.

15:15

I support Bill Butler’s suggestion that we continue with the petition. I also wish to ask Mr Stevenson whether he could return to the committee at the earliest opportunity to fill us in on the discussions that he holds with Keith Brown, the education minister, on the competence of the Scottish Government in relation to school transport, so that we can deal with the issue as a committee, on behalf of the petitioner. It would be useful to know what the Government’s view on that is at an early opportunity.

I am happy to ensure that the committee is made aware of the results of the discussions that take place.

We heard from witnesses today about developments in Wales—I think that Chief Constable Giannasi referred to them. My recollection is that the Welsh Assembly Government will require seat belts to be fitted and CCTV to be installed. Could the Scottish Government consider the Welsh model and see how it is rolled out? Its effectiveness could be considered, and some initial thoughts could be given as to whether such innovations should be considered in Scotland, in the spirit of joined-together devolution.

I am conscious that we seem to be opening up the questions again. I ask the minister to deal with that point quickly, if he can. The committee would want to contact the Welsh Assembly Government and ask it for some information, as well as its views on how the scheme is progressing. It would be useful to get further information from the police, too.

I am happy to respond in the way that Bill Butler suggests. I would rather copy than innovate—it is cheaper, and we know what the likely outcome is.

I am conscious that we have not had details about operation coachman—we could perhaps get some information about it.

Comment was made about work that is being done in Sweden.

That was the same issue of interactive bus stops to which the minister referred. Charlie Common and I could get together to provide you with details of operation coachman.

That would be very helpful—thank you very much.

15:17 Meeting suspended.

15:21 On resuming—