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Chamber and committees

Procedures Committee,

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 23, 2006


Contents


Consolidation Bills

The Convener:

Our next item is on consolidation bill procedure. Perhaps we had better go through paper PR/S2/06/9/6. I refer members to paragraph 25, which reflects the Executive's evidence and states:

"The Executive, however, saw no value in having a debate at either Stage, given the very limited nature of a Consolidation Bill."

I am concerned about that. There should be the opportunity to debate consolidation bills. It may be that if a bill is very technical no one will want to debate it anyway. However, to say that Parliament cannot debate something is not the way forward. We should be clear that a consolidation bill should be purely a consolidation bill; the Executive should not take the opportunity to sneak additional provisions into it.

I agree. Although such bills should generally not require to be debated, we should debate whether a bill—to borrow a phrase from advertising—does what it says on the tin, which is worthy of debate in itself.

The Convener:

That is right. I am sure that the modern draftsmen will try conscientiously to reproduce what the ancient draftsmen produced, but there might be different views on whether they have done so correctly. We should have the opportunity to have a debate.

I am generally reluctant to pass legislation without having had the opportunity to debate it in Parliament.

The Convener:

The clerk has drawn to my attention paragraph 28, in which he states politely that the committee

"may wish to give the Executive a further opportunity to comment on this issue, including to expand on its reasons for resisting all possibility of debate."

We could just say that we think that the Executive is wrong.

Unless the Executive can be brought round to our point of view, we will just protract the discussion. Is it likely to come round to our point of view?

Have you any insight into the thought processes of the Executive on this, Andrew?

Andrew Mylne:

I do not have a major insight. I tried to suggest in the paper that some of the issues are technical and that it might be more sensible for parliamentary officials to take forward the discussions with Executive officials and others to try to resolve them and ensure that members are happy.

If the proposals do not have to be signed off today, by all means have those informal discussions before the next meeting. I am sure that we will have informal political discussions, too.

Do committee members authorise the clerk to take a robust line on the committee's behalf?

Members indicated agreement.

The Convener:

Good.

I picked one aspect. Do members have other points about consolidation bills? The clerks have suggested—although not in the paper—that we should consider inviting the Subordinate Legislation Committee and the Scottish Law Commission to comment. Would that be in writing?

Andrew Mylne:

That is up to the committee.

Have those people not already commented?

Andrew Mylne:

The evidence that we have received is outlined in the paper. We have heard from a member of a committee that considered a consolidation bill, from Mr Iain Jamieson and from the Executive. Those are the only parties who have commented.

The Convener:

I presume that we would get an okay from the Law Commission, because I understand that it generates many consolidation proposals. In addition to pursuing discussions at official level, is it acceptable for the clerks to invite written comment on our proposals from the Subordinate Legislation Committee and the Law Commission?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you. Do members have other points on consolidation bills?

Karen Gillon:

I am not convinced that a similar cut-off time is needed. There is merit in having a different cut-off time, but a cut-off time of September is not justified. I suggest a cut-off time of the end of December. If a bill is simple and technical, it should not require masses of debate time.

What point did you just make?

The paper describes the argument for having the same cut-off time for introduction as applies to members' bills.

The issue is how near to the next election the bill procedure can be started.

Yes.

I like a nice early cut-off point—we should deal with consolidation bills early in a session when not a lot else is happening.

That is a good point.

The point applies to a previous discussion. I imagine that we will see a few consolidation bills in the next session. Perhaps a suggestion could be made to draftspeople, if they are already working on bills.

In Andrew Mylne's informal discussions with Executive officials, he can make them aware of the view about a cut-off date of September.

The Convener:

If that is proposed positively, people should be queueing to introduce consolidation bills in the months after the next election. That is a useful point, which I missed. Paragraph 36 of the paper says that the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries (Consolidation) (Scotland) Bill Committee felt that it was under pressure and committees should not be put under such pressure.

The next agenda item is a draft report on motions and decisions, which we will discuss in private, as agreed at our previous meeting.

Meeting continued in private until 11:27.