I welcome everyone to the 10th meeting this year of the Health Committee and I direct members to today's agenda. The first item of business is to ask members to consider taking items 4, 5 and 6 in private. I will expand on that. Item 4 concerns the committee's work-force planning event. Taking that item in private would allow us to discuss fully the bids that we have received and the best way of progressing matters. Incidentally, the clerks, who were part of the budgeting process, would also be able to contribute to the discussion, which obviously could not happen if we took the item in public. Are members content to take item 4 in private?
No, I am not content. I repeat what I have said before: it seems ironic that we should move into private session to discuss an event for which we are seeking public participation. I do not think that such an approach helps the ethos of openness and transparency that we are trying to inculcate in the Parliament and I see no overriding reason why we need to take the item in private.
I see a lot of merit in what you are saying, Mike. However, the clerks have had a lot to do with the whole process and I would quite like them to contribute to our discussions. They simply cannot do so if we take the item in public, because standing orders do not allow them to take part. I think that it would be useful to take the item in private, because I really want them to feed into the committee's discussion.
To me, there is quite a distinction between what we are talking about and a briefing session in which the clerks participate and give us information—the process is correct and proper in that respect. However, it is being suggested that a parliamentary committee should go into private so that the clerks can brief members on issues. That is not the correct way of working.
I take your point. Does any other member share that view?
No.
Do you wish to press the matter to a vote, Mike?
Yes.
The question is, that item 4 be taken in private. Are members agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
The result of the division is: For 7, Against 1, Abstentions 1. Item 4 will be taken in private.
I make the same point about this proposal as I made about the previous proposal. The item is appropriate for a briefing session for members of the committee; it is not appropriate for a public meeting of the Health Committee. We should always meet in public unless there are extenuating circumstances that require us to meet in private. I feel that we are automatically going into private session in our meetings.
My experience from previous committees—which may be the same as that of other members—is that these are the very circumstances in which briefing sessions are held in private, as they are not evidence-taking sessions. Nonetheless, I acknowledge your views. Do you wish to put the matter to a vote?
Yes. I wish to record my dissent.
The question is, that item 5 be taken in private. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
The result of the division is: For 7, Against 1, Abstentions 0. Item 5 will be taken in private.
I object to that.
For the same reasons?
No, for slightly different reasons, which I will explain. On a number of occasions, we have taken the decision to go into private session when thinking about calling witnesses before the committee. It is important that the general public know the thought processes and deliberations behind our calling people or not calling people to give evidence to us.
We sometimes want a specific person to give evidence. In our private paper, we have given a specific reason why one of the potential witnesses whom we may want to invite to give evidence on the Breastfeeding etc (Scotland) Bill has been named. Nevertheless, I am happy to hear other views on the matter. Do any other members have views that they wish to express?
No.
As it appears that no other members wish to express a view, I will put the question. The question is, that item 6 be taken in private. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
The result of the division is: For 8, Against 1, Abstentions 0. Item 6 will be taken in private,