Saltire (Edinburgh Castle) (PE1352)
The first item on our agenda is consideration of four new petitions, on the last of which we will hear evidence from Arran high school pupils Katy Simmons and Scott Currie. First, though, we have PE1352 from Mark Hirst, which calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government, which owns Edinburgh castle, to instruct Historic Scotland, which manages the site, to erect a 90ft flagpole in Crown square of the castle from which a saltire, Scotland’s national flag, will be permanently flown. The committee might wish to discuss a number of options, including asking the Scottish Government and Historic Scotland whether they will take the action requested by the petitioner; if so, when; and if not, why not. We might also wish to clarify who actually owns Edinburgh castle, who is responsible for running it, who is responsible for which flags are flown, and who has the power to make the changes that the petitioner seeks and what steps would require to be taken.
I think that we should take forward this petition, as it highlights an issue of some importance that I believe Christine Grahame MSP has raised previously in Parliament. It raises one or two interesting questions, including who actually owns the castle—which seems to be the point at issue—and who is responsible for the flags that are flown. It would be appropriate to ask both Historic Scotland and the Scottish Government to respond to the petition and ask them whether they are willing to consider implementing the petitioner’s request. That is my suggestion, but obviously the issue has upset other colleagues.
I agree with that. I was interested to read what the petitioner said on the matter. He previously made inquiries about replacing the union flag that flies above Edinburgh castle on a point called David’s tower, which is sometimes referred to as the clock tower, with the saltire. That was said not to be possible, as it was a designated flag-flying station for the British Army.
I suggest that we also write to the Ministry of Defence to get its opinion. There are ownership issues around the castle. It is argued that the Scottish Government owns the castle, but the MOD uses it as a base for one of the Army divisions. It would be useful to get the MOD’s view on whether it would be appropriate to fly the Scotland flag from the castle at the point that is being asked about. It would help the committee to proceed with the issue if we got that clarification.
As there are no further contributions on the subject, are we agreed that we shall write to the MOD, the Scottish Government and Historic Scotland in the terms that have been mentioned?
Citizenship Education (PE1354)
I am not sure whether I can say that I still have an interest in relation to this petition, but I am a former teacher and I am still a member of the Educational Institute of Scotland, so I declare that as an interest.
I, too, am a member of the EIS, although it is a long time since I appeared in front of a class. In fact, this is the first time for a long time that I have had pupils before me.
The petitioner is calling for citizenship to be “a compulsory element” of the school curriculum. The curriculum in Scotland is not compulsory; it is advisory. However, we can take forward the sense of what the petitioner is saying. When we write to the bodies that Bill Butler has mentioned, it would be interesting to ask where in the current curriculum the subjects concerned are covered. It seems eminently sensible for our pupils to learn about such things but, if the authorities are just going to come back to us and say that pupils learn about them already, it would be better if they gave us a bit more detail about where in the curriculum they are covered.
I am confident that our schools teach citizenship in ways that suit each individual school. As Anne McLaughlin has said, however, we need to know for sure.
My colleagues are right that something of this sort needs to be laid out in the curriculum, so that students understand what they are going into when they leave school. One of the things that concerns me—and the petitioner refers to it—is that when young people leave school and enter the world of employment, many of them do not understand what their rights are under employment law. It would be useful to add the Scottish Trades Union Congress to the list of those to contact. The STUC started working with secondary schools throughout Scotland to make pupils aware of their rights so that they did not find themselves being abused by unscrupulous employers, particularly in relation to the minimum wage, apprenticeships and traineeships. I suggest that we write to the STUC and ask for its opinion on the matter.
That could be useful. Despite the fact that aspects of the concerns in the petition are covered in bits of the Scottish curriculum, such as through modern studies, social and vocational skills and guidance classes, we are agreed that there is a sufficient gap for us to feel that the petition deserves a good deal of further attention. We have agreed to write to the MOD, the Scottish Government and Learning and Teaching Scotland. Did anyone mention Citizens Advice Scotland?
No, but I suggest it now. The petitioner said that CAS and Which? are interested, so it is worth writing to them. John Wilson mentioned writing to the STUC.
As there are no further suggestions for those we could write to at this stage, will we proceed as agreed?
Free Bus Travel (Night Services) (PE1338)
The next petition is PE1338. I declare an interest, because the petition calls for there to be no night bus surcharge for seniors and I have a seniors bus pass. In fact, there is a £3 surcharge for night buses in Edinburgh. The petition calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to amend relevant legislation to provide that night bus services are eligible services for holders of entitlement cards for free bus travel for older and disabled persons. I invite comments from the committee.
I do not yet have to declare the interest that you did, convener—not for a wee while yet. I suggest that the petition deals with an important issue, but add that imminently we will hear about a petition from young school students that might contradict what PE1338 asks for and might result in a contest between it and what PE1338 requests. However, we should ask the Scottish Government, which recently reviewed concessionary travel for seniors, whether it considered extending the concessionary travel scheme to cover night buses in the way that the petitioner urges. I will be interested to see the Scottish Government’s response. Obviously, costs are involved, which is a pertinent point. I am interested to hear what other committee colleagues think.
It is worth doing. I am not sure who we would ask about the cost implications. We are talking about buses that run after midnight. How many older people will be out after midnight? I did not want to say that, but I suppose that I did and it cannot be scrubbed from the Official Report. I am not convinced that huge swathes of people over the age of 60 would rush to get on buses at 1 o’clock in the morning if the concessionary scheme were extended. It will be interesting to know whether any work has been done to estimate what the additional costs would be.
If no other member wishes to comment, I think that we are agreed that we will write to the Scottish Government.
As well as writing to the Scottish Government, it would make sense to ask Transport Scotland about the issue. I throw that in for the committee’s consideration.
So we will write to the Scottish Government and Transport Scotland. Should we write to any other organisation?
I suggest that we write to a couple of the bus operators. In the wider debate about concessionary fares, one problem is that the bus operators in effect impose the charges and, through the concessionary fares system, the Scottish Government picks up the bill. It would be useful to write to, say, FirstBus and Lothian Buses to find out how they operate fares after midnight. Fares rise considerably after midnight, so we could ask them what their justification is for that. I suggest that we write to a couple of the bus operators to find out why they impose the charges that they do.
We could write on that specific point. I suggest that we also write to Age Scotland and the Scottish Disability Equality Forum to ask for their views. Do members agree to approach the organisations that have been mentioned in the terms that we have referred to?
Public Transport Costs (Under-18s) (PE1355)
With great pleasure, I invite Katy Simmons and Scott Currie to make their presentation on PE1355, on fair public transport costs for students. The petition calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to consider the need to lower the prices for travelling on public transport for all school and further education students who are aged 18 and below. A warm welcome to you both. Take your time, and we will smile upon your presentation.
We feel strongly that the current public transport system in Scotland for young people is like a postcode lottery. The country is divided up, and the fares are not the same for young people throughout Scotland. We feel that the issue needs to be sorted out and that we should have one charge all over Scotland.
Fares for transport in Scotland are a big problem for young people. When we turn 16, we are required to pay double what we previously paid. Not all young people who are aged 16 and over can get a full-time or even a part-time job. Sometimes, there is nowhere in their area where they can work, or the infrequency of public transport limits the hours that they can work. Also, school studies are more important than ever. For some people who are doing highers or advanced highers or who are at university or college, their studies are too important for them to spend time doing a job instead of their homework. Those who, like me, can work, are able to do that only Saturdays or Sundays. That gets me only about £20 or £30 a week, and that has to last.
In many rural areas such as Arran there are no trains, so we think that the Scottish Government should withdraw the funding for trains in rural areas and instead give it to the bus companies to make our bus travel cheaper so that we can get to the things that Katy Simmons mentioned—the ferry or the supermarket. At the moment, we get a third off. We think that the money should be used to give us two thirds off bus fares. We think that that would be fair.
There is a road equivalent tariff scheme for most of the islands in Scotland, which means that people get cheaper fares on their ferries, but it does not apply to Arran, probably because Arran is such a big tourist destination. We do not think that it is fair that the scheme does not apply to Arran. We believe that everyone should be on a par. We feel really strongly about the issue. We feel that we are disadvantaged because we live in a rural area and not in a big city. We are suffering at the hands of travel companies that are trying to make a profit out of us.
Thank you both for a well-researched presentation that made the arguments very clear. I invite members of the committee to quiz you further.
I say to Katy and Scott that it was a well-argued, clear presentation. As the temporary convener said, it is clear that you have made a real effort to research the subject. It is a bone of contention in many areas of Scotland. I suppose that what you are arguing is that it is a matter of equal treatment and social justice.
Something similar already exists in England, where concessionary bus travel is restricted to off-peak hours between 9.30 and 11. Fair enough, that could not apply on Arran because the last bus that leaves Brodick is at about 7, or 9.30 on a Friday night, but if that is already working in England, why could it not work in Scotland?
That is a fair point, but perhaps Scotland’s circumstances are different. The history of the concessionary scheme is that older people are used to having free bus travel in that way. Do you think that they would object to the proposal? Do you think that they would be convinced by the argument that you have just made?
Probably not.
What would you do to try to persuade them?
I invite Scott to respond.
Over to Scott.
I would say that, on every bus on Arran, there are three times as many young people as there are old people. There are quite a lot of old people on Arran, but they do not use the buses to full advantage, unlike the young people. There are certain shops and whatnot only in certain villages, so we have to use the bus to get there. Cheaper transport would benefit us more than it benefits older people.
I hear you loud and clear. You are making the case for your age group. I am still a wee bit doubtful about whether you would carry the day if the hall were full of people of the temporary convener’s age or older.
I am not really sure about increasing the number of free ferry journeys that we get per year. We cannot really say that we want 10 free journeys a year; that is a lot to ask. However, having two or even four does not make much difference—I go to the mainland a couple of times a month. Perhaps we should lower the price for people aged 16 to 18.
In addition to providing free journeys?
No, instead of providing free journeys.
As Katy said, the price should be lowered for 16 to 18-year-olds, who should not get two free ferry journeys. People would feel better about that, because they would not be paying the full price for their ticket. Given the number of times that they go to the mainland, they would probably end up saving more money than if they were to get two free return journeys.
Would that encourage greater use of the ferries?
Definitely.
That seems to be a rational point of view. Thank you for answering my questions.
It is within the convener’s discretion to invite non-members of the committee to join in, especially at this stage. I am delighted to give Kenny Gibson the chance to join the discussion.
Thank you. I will speak to the petition. I do not have the papers, as I am not a member of the committee. However, through the Isle of Arran ferry committee, I have been heavily involved with the issue of extending concessions on the ferries to young people. Margie Currie, who is the independent councillor for Arran, is here today. She has been most tenacious on the issue for a number of years.
Thank you. Do the witnesses want to respond to what Kenny Gibson has said?
Kenny Gibson said that he does not want to take benefits away from one group and give them to another. We propose that the Scottish Government should consider people’s circumstances rather than just areas. For instance, the 50 per cent reduction in train fares from Glasgow is not given to Arran. We are entitled to 50 per cent off our train journeys, so we think that that reduction could be taken away and we could be given cheaper bus fares. We do not want the whole area to be considered; rather, we want parts to be considered, if you know what I mean.
Not all people who live in rural areas have access to trains. They depend on buses. Perhaps the train entitlements of people who live in rural areas could be taken away, and the money could be spent on their buses instead. There are no trains on Arran.
Yes, but trains might be more convenient for people in some communities. I am quite supportive of extending the scheme to cover buses on Arran, but I do not know whether that should be done at the expense of young people who use trains on the mainland.
Just for clarity, are you saying that, as you do not benefit from the subsidy that you know the train companies receive for the railways, the Government should work out the per head subsidy and then transfer that subsidy to Arran for bus services, and that that approach could apply to other parts of Scotland?
Yes.
And to other rural areas where people cannot get to the trains as much.
Indeed. As I said, the issue is not specific to Arran. Other parts of Scotland could benefit from the kind of asymmetric system of transport subsidy that you have described.
That is correct.
I think that the misunderstanding arose because Scott Currie suggested that as there are no trains on Arran the subsidy for trains should be withdrawn and put into buses instead. I realise that that is not quite what he meant.
I do not know that much about it. My English teacher said something about it and I read an article about it in last week’s Arran Banner. Some of the ferries to the Scottish islands have much cheaper fares, which is something to do with the road equivalent tariff scheme. It means that people pay as much as they would if they had to drive the same distance, but I am told that it does not apply to Arran.
And you are not aware of the reason for that.
No.
I am sure that someone else is.
It is £3 on Glasgow Citybus and £3.75 on the other one.
FirstBus.
Yes.
Which is Glasgow’s main bus service provider.
I think that you are right. The bus companies would make so much more money if they reduced the costs because they would make their services more available and therefore more widely used.
If fares were cheaper, people would be more willing to use buses more often.
I congratulate you both on your presentation. You have made some very good points. You are campaigning for the age limit to be raised to 18 for all young people in Scotland, but you are asking specifically about Arran—you want the arrangements for the ferries and the limited bus services to be looked into, if I understand the petition properly. It is a worthy petition.
I have two questions. Many people who leave school at 18 and go into further and higher education find themselves continuing with their education until the age of 21. What was the reasoning behind your choosing an age limit of 18 rather than 21?
When we were originally writing the petition I wanted the lower fares to apply up to the age of 21, because a lot of people will be in college and university at that age, but we decided that 21 would be pushing it a bit. That would cost a lot more money than having the limit at 18.
We think that 18 could be a start. With your help, we could try and secure cheaper bus travel for people aged 21 and under. That would be a great idea.
My second question relates to what you say in your petition about the lower fares being only for people who are still at school or going into further or higher education. As my colleague Cathie Craigie said, people who leave school at 16 can find bus fares to be a major financial burden when they take up employment—when they leave school, many young people go into jobs at the minimum wage level, which is not much more than what you earn, Katy, from your part-time weekend job. Do you want concessionary fares to be extended at some stage to people in the 16-to-18 age bracket irrespective of whether they are in further or higher education?
At some point, definitely.
Normally during consideration of petitions in the Parliament, it is strictly forbidden for people in the public gallery even to express themselves by clapping or cheering—and they may certainly not join in the discussion. This is a special occasion, however—we are in Arran high school, and you are with friends and colleagues. This is at the discretion of the committee, and we have decided to give members of the public in the gallery the opportunity to join in the discussion for a few minutes. One person has already signified her willingness to take part.
I am the local member of North Ayrshire Council for Arran and Ardrossan. I very much endorse the young people’s petition and all that they say. I will not go into the details that Scott Currie and Katy Simmons have mentioned, but I think that they have done a good survey.
I ask Scott and Katy whether they want to respond briefly. They were nodding their heads enthusiastically.
Thank you, Margie. We definitely think that it would be worth looking into extending that scheme.
I thank Margie Currie for that.
I am the secretary of Arran community council and I also run an online newspaper for Arran, so I must declare a double function. I congratulate the two young persons who have put forward the petition, because they were very fluent and persuasive. It is enormously important that we increase the chances of our young people to have the advantage of travel, so that they can get to cities for education, cultural purposes and entertainment—it is all part of life. If there is any question of their full development being limited by transport, we should take the issue seriously. It matters, and it is part of their education and development. I offer my complete support for the petition.
As no one among the young people in the audience wants to comment, I take it that you all agree with the presentation from your colleagues.
As I said earlier, and as every other contributor has said, Katy Simmons and Scott Currie gave an excellent presentation. Given that some of their arguments are compelling—others are, perhaps, less so—we should take forward the petition. I suggest that we write to the Scottish Government, to the Confederation of Passenger Transport and to various transport operators, including First ScotRail, FirstGroup, CalMac Ferries and Stagecoach.
Do members have any further questions that we should put to the Government?
I do not think that Bill Butler covered Kenny Gibson’s point about the conditions of the scheme and the extent to which it is the responsibility of SPT. I suggest that we should also write to SPT to get information on that issue.
While the petition is on-going—my comments are not directed at the committee—I encourage Katy Simmons and Scott Currie to approach bus operators on the island to make the commercial case for why they should act off their own bat. We are looking at the issue from a national perspective, but I encourage them to look into the issue locally. Both petitioners presented themselves very well, so they could make the bus operators at least sit up and listen to what they have to say.
Finally, one question that was raised is whether people understand their entitlement to concessionary fares. It might be worth our while to write to Young Scot to ensure that the message gets over to school students about the entitlement card, which should be made easily available to every young person in Scotland. I know that when my daughter lost her Young Scot card, it took a while to get a replacement, which caused problems with concessionary fares and the other entitlements that come with the card. We should ask how it gets its message over to young people. We could also ask Young Scot and, possibly, the Scottish Youth Parliament for their views on concessionary travel for young people throughout Scotland.
It falls to me to sum up. The committee is agreed that we should write to the Scottish Government, the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, Young Scot and a selection of transport operators in the terms that we have described during the discussion. I recommend to the committee that we ask the Government to accept the Official Report of this meeting and the petition as a contribution to the review of island ferry services that it is undertaking.
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