Local Government and Communities Committee

Meeting date: Wednesday, November 1, 2017

Official Report 664KB pdf

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Homelessness

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the 25th meeting in 2017 of the Local Government and Communities Committee. I remind everyone present to turn off mobile phones. As members’ papers are provided in digital format, tablets may be used during the meeting. We have a full house—no apologies have been received.

Under agenda item 1, the committee will take evidence from the Minister for Local Government and Housing as part of its inquiry into homelessness. Good morning, minister.

Good morning.

I welcome the minister’s officials. We are pleased to have with us David Signorini, who is the head of better homes, and Marion Gibbs, who is the team leader for homelessness, both in the Scottish Government. Thank you for coming along.

I believe that the minister has an opening statement to make before we move to questions.

I do, convener. I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to outline our plans to tackle homelessness and rough sleeping.

In recent years, with strong housing rights already in place, we have made significant progress in preventing homelessness. The number of homelessness applications has fallen by more than a third since 2010, and fewer families are in unsuitable temporary accommodation. However, we are not complacent. We know that now is the time to do more, to build on the progress that we have made and to be more ambitious. We want to ensure that everyone—including people with the most complex needs—is supported to secure a home that works for them and to achieve the best possible outcomes.

Members of the committee and many people across Scotland will be concerned by the apparent rise in the number of people who are sleeping rough. That situation is unacceptable in a country that is as wealthy as ours, which is why we have recently announced measures to address it.

In our programme for government, the First Minister set a clear objective of eradicating rough sleeping, and we have moved quickly to establish the short-term homelessness and rough sleeping action group, which is chaired by Jon Sparkes of Crisis. The group is already working hard to identify actions to address rough sleeping this winter, and it will report in the next few weeks on the actions that it will recommend on that time-critical initial question. In the coming months, the group will also consider what further action is required to end rough sleeping for good, how we can transform temporary accommodation and how we can end homelessness in Scotland.

We have also created the ending homelessness together fund, which we are providing with £50 million over a five-year period, and we are investing an additional £20 million in alcohol and drug services. The action group will consider options for the best use of the fund from 2018-19, and, in the longer term, we will continue to work with local authorities and other partners through the homelessness prevention and strategy group to drive change and improvement.

I look forward to reading the committee’s recommendations, as it is clear to me that success will rely on all of us working together. We face huge challenges, not least from the United Kingdom Government’s welfare reform programme, but through the action-focused approach that we are taking, we can make lasting change in Scotland and ensure that everyone is able to secure a safe and suitable home.

Thank you very much, minister.

The minister mentioned the need for everyone to work together, which has been a key theme in the evidence that we have taken in our inquiry. You also said that homelessness is not just a housing problem but is often a symptom of wider problems. In its submission, the Association of Local Authority Chief Housing Officers said that, in the longer term, consideration should be given to extending the statutory obligations on homelessness beyond local authorities to a wider range of public agencies. Do you believe that that would be helpful?

As the committee will be aware, John Mills of ALACHO is a member of the action group, and I am sure that he will convey ALACHO’s views to the group. I will certainly look closely at that suggestion.

As I have gone round the country speaking to third sector organisations, local authorities and people who have lived experience of homelessness, I have sometimes found that services are not joined up in the way that they should be. I have also come across extremely good examples of cases in which local authorities and others have adopted a joined-up, person-centred and preventative approach to tackling homelessness that works well.

I will give the committee a good example. Jeane Freeman and I recently met Dundee City Council, which has brought together homelessness teams and Scottish welfare fund and energy efficiency staff, among others. I would like that approach to be exported elsewhere. The best practice is discussed regularly at housing options hubs. I want to ensure that all the hubs are aware of all the good work that is being done, regardless of where it is being done, so that they can pick up the best practice and make it a reality across the country.

It has been useful that, in Glasgow, the Scottish Housing Regulator has mapped out the journeys of a number of folk to find out where things have gone well and where things have gone less well. I am keen to ensure that, as well as looking at the recommendations that the action group comes up with, we continue to look at what is happening on a day-to-day basis. The work that has been undertaken by the Scottish Housing Regulator will help us to pinpoint the areas in which we need to make improvements, which might be areas in which joint working is not taking place to the extent that it should be.

You suggest that there is best practice out there, and we have seen some of that. However, the question is whether we need a step change in how we fund such services and in the statutory obligations that we place on key agencies such as the national health service and the Scottish Prison Service to ensure that, as well as being spread and learned from, best practice is embedded and becomes an obligation on the wide range of agencies that deal with the problems that contribute to homelessness.

I will look very closely at what the action group comes up with and at what others are saying. I do not think that the issue is necessarily about budgeting per se; I think that it is about bringing together people on the front line to make sure that they are taking a person-centred approach to individuals. We often find that, although we might get elements of the help that we provide people with absolutely spot on, the element that we get wrong is the one that drives them back into a homeless situation. We must look extremely closely at where difficulties might exist, and I know that the action group will do that.

In some of the organisations that the committee has visited and that I have spent time with, we can see clearly where the holistic approach works. A good example is tomorrow’s women Glasgow, which does not follow the housing first approach, but has put in place all the agency support that is required to help women to retain their tenancies and to deal with other issues that they may face. Legislation is not always the answer to those things. We need services that are tailored to deliver on every aspect of the needs of an individual or a family so that they continue to retain a secure tenancy.

It is worth putting on the record for anyone who is following proceedings that the Scottish Housing Regulator will be before our committee in a few weeks’ time, not as part of this inquiry but to give evidence on its annual report. I am aware of the work that the regulator is doing in Glasgow; it will be interesting to hear more about that.

Good morning, minister. Putting an absolute figure on how many people sleep rough is obviously difficult and may be impossible. We have had evidence that rough sleeping is increasing in some parts of the country. You have set up a homelessness and rough sleeping action group, one of whose priorities is, I think, to reduce but not to eradicate, rough sleeping this winter. We are already in the winter. How are you getting on?

The action group first met at the beginning of October. It will meet again tomorrow and will provide me with recommendations of what we need to do over the winter. The meetings are not the only thing that is going on, however. Members of the action group have been in constant communication with one another to make sure that they get matters spot on. Mr Simpson is right about their first task, and I look forward to hearing their recommendations on that issue as soon after tomorrow as is possible.

Given that we are already in the winter and your priority was to reduce rough sleeping this winter, I would have expected something to have happened by now.

I will consider very carefully what the action group has to say. Services are already in place for this winter: the Edinburgh night shelter has been operational since 23 October or round about that date—I am looking to my officials—and the Glasgow City Mission winter night shelter opened up during storm Ophelia because temperatures dropped at that time. I will move quickly on the group’s recommendations to make sure that we get as many folk as possible off the streets this winter.

The action group is not just about dealing with rough sleeping this winter. Beyond that, it will answer the question of how we can eradicate rough sleeping. That is very important, because it is all fair and well for us to put emergency measures in place every winter but I want to see the eradication of rough sleeping full stop—and I am sure that the committee wants to see that, too.

You are absolutely right. As you know, we have been looking at eradication, particularly on our recent trip to Finland. It sounds as though nothing has happened so far to tackle the problems this winter.

I have said that a number of winter shelters are already in place.

I am sorry, minister, but those shelters have existed for years. There is nothing new in that.

Sure, but it would be unfair to say that nothing has happened. I know for a fact that, between 5 October and tomorrow, when it will meet again, the action group has been working hard to come up with solutions and recommendations that it will present to me.

09:45  

Thanks for joining us, minister. My questions are also on rough sleeping and follow on from what Graham Simpson asked you about. The support that you talk about is provided mainly by churches, which do a brilliant job. What should the role of the public sector be in providing support for rough sleepers?

I am grateful to faith groups and third sector groups for all the work that they do to deal with the issues that rough sleepers face and homelessness in general. The work that organisations such as Bethany Christian Trust and Glasgow City Mission carry out is extremely important to what we are trying to do. I hope that they will continue with the engagement and work that they have done over a number of years.

The public sector and local authorities also have duties in that regard, and we know that, in many places, local authorities provide the methods and facilities that are used. I would like to see folk going into temporary accommodation with the required support rather than a reliance on night shelters or hostel accommodation. On its trip to Finland, the committee saw examples of how things work there.

We will look closely at what the action group has to say. The committee will be aware that the Rev Russell Barr, a former moderator of the Church of Scotland, is a member of the group and has been interested in the subject for many years. We will see what recommendations the group makes for provision not only in the cities but in rural areas. I am sure that it will have something to say about the services that faith groups, including Bethany Christian Trust and Glasgow City Mission, currently provide.

As I said, the faith groups do a fantastic job, but we have to give wider consideration to how the provision is worked. In your opening statement, you talked about the apparent rise in rough sleeping—I think that “apparent” was the word that you used. Why did you say “apparent”? If it is because we do not have exact numbers, I note that Homeless Action Scotland has asked the Scottish Government whether it will conduct a national audit to establish the number of people who are sleeping rough. Do you have any plans to follow that advice?

Two questions are asked of those who present themselves as homeless: “Did you sleep rough last night?” and, “Have you slept rough over the past three months?” The figure for those who had slept rough the night before has risen slightly in recent times. If I remember rightly—I look to Marion Gibbs to correct me if I am wrong—that figure has risen from 7 to 8 per cent of those presenting as homeless. It is a slight rise, whereas the figure for folk saying that they have slept rough over the past three months has remained almost static.

Those are the figures that we have, but there has been a rise in the number of folk saying that they see more people sleeping on the streets. That is why I am using the word “apparent”. The figures do not necessarily match the anecdotes or what I have seen myself in Aberdeen and Edinburgh.

An audit would be very difficult to undertake, and I am not sure how accurate the ones that have been done in the past have been. I would rather that efforts were put into actions to get folk off the streets and into accommodation. That is where the focus lies, and it is what the action group has been tasked to look at and to offer recommendations on. If the action group were to come up with a recommendation to carry out an audit, I would obviously consider it. However, the key thing for all of us here is not to argue about the number of folk who are on the streets on any one night but to provide those folk with the accommodation that they need.

I will mop up a couple of things, minister. You mentioned the homelessness and rough sleeping action group, which we all welcome, and that its recommendations will find their way to you fairly soon. Will those recommendations be made public?

I will be open and transparent, and I am sure that the group will want to be as open and transparent as it can be, so all those recommendations will be made public.

That is very helpful.

I know from my constituency case load that my constituents see a more visible form of rough sleeping in Glasgow. When the committee visited Glasgow, some charitable organisations said to us that the nature of rough sleeping has changed. One theory—it is a theory; we do not know for sure—is that, previously, rough sleepers were down alleyways or under railway archways, but they do not feel safe there any longer. They come into the public spotlight because they feel safer in shop doorways.

Is the rough sleeping culture changing a bit? Perhaps we need to understand the lived experience of rough sleepers and why some of them opt for that lifestyle, although some have been failed by services. Has there been a change in the dynamic of rough sleeping in Scotland?

That is a very difficult question for me to answer. In going out and talking to various organisations, we hear about the experiences of different individuals and why they have changed the way that they do things, but it is difficult to give you a straight answer to that question. In certain places in Scotland, there has been a rise in the amount of begging or, at least, an increased visibility of begging. Some of that might be down to the fact that changes in legislation by the UK Government have meant that many folk have no recourse to public funds. The UK Government must look at and address that issue, because we are creating crises for people every day because of that situation.

Tomorrow, as well as holding its initial meeting, the action group will talk to a number of stakeholder groups—between 40 and 50, I think—so perhaps we could ask it to pose your question, so that you can get more in-depth information on that. I have information that I have received from folk as I have gone out and about, but it is more anecdotal than hard information. I know that you want hard information, so we will try to get that for you.

That would be helpful.

I have one more brief question before I bring in Jenny Gilruth. None of us wants night shelters to have to exist, but they are going to exist this winter. When vulnerable people are forced, because of the harshness of winter, to present at night shelters, you have a cohort of people who are vulnerable who might have previously disengaged from services, and that gives us a real opportunity to get them back into the system again. Do you agree that that opportunity exists? Are you confident that there will be a plan in place to achieve that?

Absolutely. What you are suggesting should become a matter of course. Over the past years, Glasgow City Mission has tried to link people who have presented at its shelter with health and other services, and it has had some success in that regard. We are talking about a situation in which folks, many of whom have lost confidence in people, come into a shelter and find that there are people there who are willing to listen—that willingness to listen is the key thing—and those people can then signpost them to the services that they require.

From my knowledge of what went on at Glasgow City Mission’s shelter last year, that approach has been helpful. At the recent Glasgow homelessness summit, which I attended, Glasgow City Mission gave a presentation about its experience, and I know that the sort of work that it has done around signposting is now being done by many other organisations, and long may that continue, because that joined-up approach is the way in which we can help folk get out of situations that they do not want to be in.

We will talk a little bit more about that when we address the housing first model.

In previous evidence-taking sessions, we have listened to the experiences of homeless people, and a consistent theme has been the experiences of care-experienced young people going into the system and their experiences of homelessness. Do you have a view on how best we can meet the needs of care-experienced people in that regard?

Since taking over this role, I have had a number of bilateral meetings with ministerial colleagues, including Mark McDonald, the Minister for Childcare and Early Years. At the moment, we are in the middle of the care review, which was instigated by the First Minister. However, we cannot just wait for its findings; actions are required now. We have already taken some action to make life easier for younger folk who are leaving the care system and moving into accommodation.

There are some barriers to what we are trying to achieve there, because the Westminster Government has removed housing benefit for 18 to 21-year-olds. The Scottish Government has been able to mitigate that using the Scottish welfare fund to ensure that those folks can continue to get support. Recently, the First Minister announced that we will look to remove younger folk from the obligation to pay council tax, in order to set them on the right path. Beyond that, when it comes to the housing options approach, we have a protocol in place for care leavers.

Mr McDonald and I recognise that we must continue to ensure that we are doing our best. I have continued to speak to young folk about their lived experiences and where the system has not necessarily worked well for them. That is why I want to ensure that the housing options toolkit that we are developing to help to train front-line staff has elements that deal exclusively with those who are leaving care, because it is the folk on the front line who are key to ensuring that young people move into tenancies that are sustainable. It is not just about getting them a house and it is not even just about the support that is available through the Scottish welfare fund if a rent element is required or about the removal of the obligation to pay council tax; it is about ensuring that other elements are in place to support those folks in tenancies.

10:00  

I know that many of the members around the table will have heard me speak from the back benches about the fact that we all have a responsibility as corporate parents to these young folk. I want to ensure not only that elected members in the Scottish Parliament recognise our responsibility, but that councillors recognise their role as corporate parents and ensure that the policies that they are putting in place at council level recognise their responsibility to ensure that care leavers are put on the right path.

At the end of the day, some of us who have been lucky enough to live in pretty secure environments still rely on parental support. I am 49 years old and, to this day, I still do from time to time, and I am sure that that applies to many of us. That support might not be monetary; it might come in the form of advice. We need to ensure that young folk have all those elements, so that they can have the best start, which we would want every young person to have.

I am sure that committee members cannot believe that you are 49 years old, minister.

In September, evidence from the National Audit Office laid the blame for the 60 per cent increase in the homeless population in England and Wales at the door of the UK welfare benefit reforms. Last week, the Simon Community told us that the UK welfare reforms were leading to longer stays in temporary accommodation and, a couple of weeks ago, Shelter told the committee that it is unlikely that the Scottish Government will be able to sustainably mitigate all of the welfare reforms. Do you agree with that statement? Does the Scottish Government’s mitigation of what the UK Government is doing have a shelf life? There is obviously a disconnect there, and a clash of political cultures.

Secondly, do you agree that the UK Government’s welfare reforms are disproportionately affecting certain groups of homeless people? We have talked about care-experienced young people, but I would also put women—whose experience we discussed last week—into that bracket.

I do not know how many committee members watched the STV documentary earlier this week that featured a number of women with families in Edinburgh who were affected by the benefit cap. If I remember correctly, two women—Siobhan and Melissa—talked about their experiences of the benefit cap. They said that it meant that they could no longer stay in the housing that they had been living in and that they had been forced into temporary accommodation. That kind of situation is completely unacceptable. As the National Audit Office report points out, the UK Government has not done its due diligence in considering the impact of the policies that it is implementing, and it quite clearly says that that work should have been done. The STV documentary showed directly the unacceptable impact on Siobhan, Melissa and their children.

The Scottish Government can mitigate a number of things—bedroom tax mitigation costs £47 million a year, we have talked a number of times today about using the Scottish welfare fund to ensure that 18 to 21-year-olds whose housing benefit is being withdrawn are still helped and we have put additional money into discretionary housing payments in recent times—but we cannot mitigate every aspect of the cuts that are being made.

I know that this committee and others have pleaded with the UK Government to rethink what it is doing. I ask it to take a long, hard look at the impact that its policy decisions are having on individuals and families right across the country. At the very least, there is an expectation that, when we bring new policy to the forefront in Scotland, we carry out impact assessments. At the very least, the UK Government should be carrying out impact assessments before introducing some of the policies in question. The STV documentary shows quite clearly that those changes are having major impacts on folk here.

I would like to finish with a point about the benefit cap and how other measures can be put in place to alleviate some of the difficulties with it. I understand that Glasgow City Council has done a piece of work that looks at the families who are likely to be affected by the benefit cap and who might be in rented accommodation that costs a little bit more. It identifies them and gives them the option of moving into social housing, which is often cheaper, thus removing some of those difficulties.

I think that other councils need to look at doing that. I have spoken to a number of other councils and asked them to look at what Glasgow is doing and see whether they can do something similar. I intend to write to all the councils that I have not spoken to to establish whether they can do likewise. If we can head off some of those difficulties at the pass, it will save families from having to resort to temporary accommodation.

Minister, my deputy convener just made the good suggestion that it would be very helpful if we were sighted on the correspondence that goes to local authorities and the responses that come back, if that would be appropriate.

I am more than happy to give you sight of that, convener.

We have touched on care leavers. I recently wrote to all councils about their responsibilities with regard to care leavers. I asked them what policies for care leavers they have in place. I am more than happy to share that information, including the responses, with the committee, and I will do likewise with the information to which you referred.

Okay. I will bring in Alexander Stewart in a second, but I want to mop up a couple of points first.

I note in my briefing for today’s meeting that the management fees for temporary accommodation have been taken out of universal credit and that the UK Government has transferred £22.5 million to cover those costs. I have no idea whether that amount is sufficient; I just know that the figure is there and that the money was to be distributed by the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. Could you give us more information about that figure and how the spending of it will be monitored?

Convener, £22.5 million is not enough—the answer is no. We have had discussion with COSLA about the distribution, as you pointed out.

Can you give me an indication of what other detail you require? I might have to write to the committee to cover the issue in more depth, but if you can indicate what you are looking for, I might be able to answer today.

Rather than ask something off the cuff, perhaps we as a committee can rethink what kind of detail we are looking for and get back to you. We certainly want to make sure that we have covered all the appropriate areas of evidence before we report on our inquiries.

As a final mopping-up point, the care leavers are incredibly important, and lots of other groups have at-risk transitions in their lives, such as prisoners and former military personnel. Is there a consolidated strategy across local authorities not just for care leavers—as significant and important as that group is—but for all groups who have transitional points in their lives when they are at significant additional risk of homelessness? Could additional thought could be given to such an approach?

Most councils have in place policies on veterans. With regard to other at-risk groups and people who may experience homelessness, one of our key actions involves the production of a housing options toolkit. We want to ensure that the training package is the very best it can be in order to allow staff on the front line to understand the difficulties that certain folk and certain groups of folk are going through.

My officials are quite possibly a little bit naffed off—I will not say “annoyed”—at the number of things that I have asked to have added to the toolkit. That includes things that we might not necessarily think about until we actually meet individuals and groups and hear their stories. That is why it is important that the committee has been out and about talking to folk, and why it is an important part of my job to talk to folk who have lived experience of homelessness.

For example, I recently asked officials to look at what we need to do in the toolkit to address the needs of folk from the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community and LGBT young folk in particular. I met a number of young folk from LGBT Youth Scotland who came up with a number of things that, to be frank, I had not thought about, but which need to be built into the toolkit so that those on the front line can understand the pressures that certain folk go through and understand what is happening in folks’ lives.

The toolkit will cover the full gamut of groups and folks. Marion Gibbs might want to add to that, because she has been at the forefront in discussing with local authorities what is required, and we are at the stage where we are about to procure the toolkit itself.

Just before you come in, Marion—we definitely want you to contribute—I point out that, when the minister said that he might be annoying his officials, both of you had very good poker faces. However, I have perhaps annoyed Alexander Stewart, who I know has a line of questioning on the toolkit. We will hear from Marion, and then I will bring in Alexander Stewart to develop some of the points.

The toolkit has been developed through a co-production model, and all 32 local authorities—which I am sure you recognise is a considerable feat in itself—have signed up to take part, along with Glasgow Housing Association. They have been working through the hubs to take the toolkit forward.

It is not just local authorities alone that are looking at procurement and all the rest of it—they have invited groups such as Scottish Women’s Aid, the Scottish Refugee Council and NHS Health Scotland to be involved in the production of the toolkit. We are trying to capture all the experience that is out there and to ensure that the toolkit reflects the best stuff so that, when it is rolled out, the individual front-line workers will have a good resource behind them.

It is very much about identifying people who have an interest in certain areas—for example, Skills Development Scotland is involved and interested in the project. We are looking at the toolkit more widely, in relation to not only housing but aspects such as employability, financial management and health. There is a huge range of stuff in the toolkit. As the minister pointed out, organisations such as LGBT Youth Scotland have a particular offer with regard to how we can develop services to be more responsive to the needs of certain groups in Scotland.

I am sorry, convener—I missed out one part of your question, and I think that it is important that I respond to it. You mentioned prisoners, and I failed to answer on that front. We are setting out minimum standards under SHORE. You know that I do not really like acronyms: that stands for “sustainable housing outcomes on release for everyone”. That should ensure co-ordination on release.

10:15  

Beyond that, on the cross-cutting Government response to dealing with those issues, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, Michael Matheson, chairs a ministerial group on offender reintegration, which brings together eight ministers, I think, to try to get things right for folk who are leaving prison. Obviously, housing is a major element of that. We have discussed release dates, for example. If somebody is being released at 4 o’clock on a Friday afternoon, that will not give them the opportunity to deal with services. We have had discussions about getting all of that right.

I am sorry to have come back in, but I missed out that element, and it was important that I put that on the record.

That is very helpful.

We have touched on the housing options toolkit, which is a huge opportunity. During our evidence taking, witnesses have been very supportive of the toolkit and the possibilities that it can bring. You have given some information about the toolkit’s depth and breadth, and there is great potential in its size and scope, but is your plan to bring it out in stages or to develop it in certain sectors? You have given us examples of organisations that were not originally considered and which you are now considering. To ensure that we get the toolkit’s purpose right and that we get people’s views on it, it is very important that people are not given masses of information that they are not able to disseminate fully and that the information comes out in a way that is of benefit. That was the evidence that we took. People felt that the toolkit could be a huge advantage if we hit the specifics that they want and took in the views and opinions of individuals and organisations that have a big impact in the area.

That is a very good point. We do not want an information or training overload. Mr Stewart is right in that regard.

The toolkit will have six modules, so that will split it all up. Beyond that, there will be flexibility to look at adding to it at a later date if something else from an organisation hits our radar.

We have listened a lot to local authorities, but we have also listened to third sector partners and others, including folks with lived experience of homelessness, to try to get an approach that is as good as possible. Obviously, we will continue to monitor how well the toolkit is working, and we will take feedback from folks who are being trained on it and who are using it. It would be pointless if we did not do so.

On the listening that has been done, there have been a fair number of discussions involving me, Marion Gibbs and other folk in her team, and we have picked up on things that we know we might not be getting right in certain places and ensured that information is available to get them right. However, we have not been complacent in waiting for the toolkit; we have disseminated good practice right across the board.

If members do not mind, I will use a prop, which I do not normally do. With the help of Scottish Women’s Aid, women in Fife put together a document entitled “Change, Justice, Fairness: ‘Why should we have to move everywhere and everything because of him?’” It is based on their experiences in getting housing after having had to flee from domestic violence.

The women put a huge amount of effort into creating the document, with the support of Scottish Women’s Aid. As I have gone round the country speaking to folk, I have mentioned that document time and again. Fife Council has been working on the recommendations in it so that it can get that part of the service right, and other councils have taken cognisance of it and are looking to do likewise. It is not just about the toolkit itself; it is about the constant change that is going on and the new information that is appearing. I suggest that folk read that document. Some of the key findings in it are extremely important if we are to change and reshape services to get the right approach. As folk do those things, which are extremely worthwhile, we will continue to update and disseminate information.

I am sorry for using a prop, convener, but, frankly, the women in Fife who put the document together deserve a lot of plaudits, and they deserve that wee advert for the work that they have done.

Absolutely—that is an appropriate thing to do.

The toolkit will obviously help many people, but it may be a real advantage for those who have multiple and complex needs. We need to encourage agencies to try to redesign some of their approaches to ensure that that becomes a reality. I know that some of that work has taken place already, but it is quite a hard nut to crack to ensure that the agencies are joined up and are thinking about some of the multiple issues such as the implications for health or mental health. How are we going to progress that in the short and medium term?

I am glad that Mr Stewart used the word “redesign”, because I do not want to reinvent—I do not think that any of us wants to do that. A huge amount of good work is already going on out there, in which all the pieces of the jigsaw are completely and utterly joined up. However, we need to ensure that public bodies, local authorities, housing associations, the health service—the entire shebang—realise that that way of working is the right way and can actually save a lot of money. Setting aside the money aspect, they also need to realise that there is a human cost of not working in that way. It is important that we take the best practices that exist and ensure that they are replicated, with redesign in certain areas, to get the approach absolutely right.

The committee has looked a lot at the housing first approach. A lot of things are going on that are not necessarily housing first per se but which are very similar to it. The tomorrow’s women project in Glasgow is a good example of agencies being brought together to ensure that there is a person-centred approach in dealing with women who often have very difficult backgrounds and sometimes extremely complex needs. With that kind of project, there is a natural progression, in that other agencies suddenly want to become involved because they see the advantage of what is going on.

Many of the women at the project were very cynical about criminal justice. Some of them told me and Jeane Freeman, who was with me that day, that, sometimes, folk stray from the path a little bit and find themselves in the criminal justice system again. However, sheriffs in Glasgow recognised that those women were taking part in and were being helped by the project and, consequently, they probably took decisions that were different from those that they would have taken otherwise, because they knew what was going on and that the journey for those women was on-going.

The issue is not only about persuading certain elements to come in at the very beginning, but about additional folk recognising that, if they come on board, their involvement will add value and help people to proceed further along the path.

Health and social care partnerships give us another opportunity to look at what we should focus on. The partnerships must consider how they want to move things forward. I have no doubt that we will see benefits from health and social care integration in the long term, but in the short term the agencies must consider coming out of their silos to support individuals. There is still some way to go to resolve that issue. What you are doing is supporting and helping, but the agencies must think about what they are doing to make that support a reality.

Many bodies are looking at the evaluations of the housing first model that have been carried out, such as Turning Point Scotland’s housing first project evaluation, which was put together by Sarah Johnsen of Heriot-Watt University. One does not need to delve far into that report to see the positive outcomes from following the housing first path.

I am pleased that Aberdeen will probably be one of the next areas to hold an event on how the agencies there can use the housing first approach.

As I have said, the complete housing first model does not have to be used. Instead, it is about having a person-centred approach that ensures that all the elements that an individual requires to be able to sustain a tenancy, and the help behind that, are in place.

All that means that the work must be psychologically informed. Folk must know about the real difficulties that the person, or the family, faces, and they must ensure that they get the environment absolutely right when helping folk who often have complex needs.

As MSPs, we will all have had constituency cases in which someone has come to us with a problem that they need help with. However, when we delve down further, we often find that the initial issue that they raised was not the real problem. We have to get better when delving into issues to see exactly what is required to help that person on their way on the journey to a sustained tenancy. That is extremely difficult with folk with complex needs, who may completely and utterly distrust authority or the system. Therefore, the most important thing is to ensure that folk on the front line have the knowledge to be able to delve down into the issue, build that trust and have empathy. We cannot legislate for a lot of that—we cannot legislate for empathy or common sense—but I want to ensure that we provide all the elements that are required to allow the folk on the front line to start the process of getting people on the right path with the right support.

10:30  

Maybe we could mop up one or two things about the housing first approach before we move on. Andy Wightman has other matters that he wants to explore in the next line of questioning.

The committee is moving towards being significantly sympathetic to the housing first approach. Usually we are told that we should have fidelity to a system. However, when the committee went to Helsinki we were told something very different. If housing first works, it is because of some key underlying principles. Housing first should be implemented in the context of the country—it is about what works for that country. Another key principle is that people should be given access to all services at the point of crisis. That involves integrating health, social care and housing, which takes a significant realignment of budgets to achieve, as well as having a greater supply of housing. In Finland, someone who turns up in an emergency may have to be accommodated for a few days but a social worker is pretty quickly appointed and they get a secure tenancy and all the associated wraparound services.

We were impressed by some aspects of housing first. There are some small-scale examples in Scotland, including at Turning Point Scotland, which is in my constituency. I ask you the same question that I asked the First Minister last week, which was about budget lines in relation to trying to achieve the model in Scotland. We have the £10 million a year ending homelessness together fund and the £20 million a year alcohol and drug services budget. There is also the substantial affordable housing investment programme and healthcare budgets. Would aligning those budgets bring money into the system to create new tenancies? Housing supply is a key issue, but so is the workforce, because we need additional care workers, addiction workers and social workers in the system.

As I say, housing first has been tried on a small scale in Scotland. We know about the action group, but we are just trying to tease out the Government’s thinking on housing first and the budget lines that the Government might draw on to make that model a reality.

I imagine that the action group would make recommendations about funding. We can use the new ending homelessness together fund to pilot initiatives and look at what is required. You rightly pointed out that we have a lot of money in the system, although that does not always join up as it should. Aligning budgets is not necessarily the solution to everything, but aligning people is extremely important.

I go back to the situation in Dundee, where a team of folk work together. One person sits at one end of the room and deals with somebody who is homeless. Instead of leaving it at that, however, they immediately speak to their colleagues around the room, depending on whether the homeless person needs something from the Scottish welfare fund or advice about home energy efficiency. They might even go through that person’s benefit entitlements and look at what is required to get them additional support from the Department for Work and Pensions. There is not one budget for that—there are still different budget lines—but I think that that team approach, where everybody works together, is the way forward. There are huge opportunities there in relation to where we are at the moment.

Alexander Stewart touched on health and social care integration. It is absolutely vital that health and social care partnerships look at what they are doing on housing and homelessness. A huge amount of the preventative work that they undertake is around ensuring that they are getting it right for individuals. In the case of health and social care partnerships, that means not just homeless folk; it is also about ensuring that folk have the right adaptations in their homes to save them from having to go into hospital or long-term care.

At the moment, we have huge opportunities to get this right. Homelessness is not just a housing matter but a matter that goes across the public sector, and I have been spending a huge amount of time speaking to health, justice, early years and employability colleagues to ensure that we are aligned in tackling the issue. We could move forward with new approaches, but if we do not have everyone with us, folk will still fall through the cracks. That is why all the elements have to come together.

I will look very carefully at what the action group says about budgeting, and I assure the committee that in the medium to long term the homelessness prevention and strategy group, which we intend to reinvigorate, will continue to look at all of these issues. If necessary, we will look further at how budgets can be aligned.

Finally, with regard to the affordable element of all of this, I expect all local authorities and housing associations to look at the opportunities that our programme provides in order to ensure that we have the right accommodation for homeless people. At the moment, 73 per cent of the City of Edinburgh Council’s allocations go to homeless people, whereas the average across the country is about 40 per cent. Local authorities and housing associations should continue to monitor their allocations policies to ensure that they are getting it right for homeless people. Beyond that, folk who are homeless should be benefiting from the new housing that is coming on stream.

That was very helpful, minister. It is worth noting that homeless people and rough sleepers are not always the same thing, and the housing first approach very much focuses on vulnerable people who find themselves on the street at times of crisis. There are supply-side issues, which is why I deliberately mentioned the existing £20 million and £10 million a year budgets for supporting individuals rather than housing itself. I also mentioned the AHIP budget, because there is a supply-side issue in that respect. We will return to this point soon, but I know that you take a great interest in strategic housing investment programmes—

Perhaps too much of an interest, convener.

If we decide to back housing first, should a percentage of the new units that local authorities wish to see in the years ahead be built on a housing first model? Should some of them be allocated to very vulnerable individuals on a housing first secured tenancy approach, which would mean local authorities aligning their support services for the most vulnerable people—those who, this year, will be staying in the night shelters in Glasgow and Edinburgh or sleeping rough around Scotland? I am just trying to get a tangible idea of what the meaty AHIP budget could mean in practice, the nuances of how it is spent and whether a housing first model should be directly aligned with it.

As I have told the committee before, councils should, when formulating their SHIPs, look at the housing needs and demands in their areas, and that will include the housing needs of folks who find themselves homeless. We have previously talked at length about local authorities ensuring that they have the right provision in place for disabled people and families with disabled members, and I would expect them to do exactly the same thing when they look at what is required to move forward with a housing first model, if that is what they intend to do. My answer, therefore, is yes, I would expect authorities to look at such elements in their assessments of housing needs and demands.

Obviously, when formulating any housing first policy, local authorities will need to have the housing in place. Whether that is existing or new housing, they will have to think about how they provide that element in order to move forward with housing first.

I will take supplementaries from Kenneth Gibson and Graham Simpson in a second. First, though, I want to sneak in a final question to tease out this issue a little bit more, as you would expect me to, minister.

In Finland, there is a relatively modest financial incentive from the centre for local areas deciding to invest in housing first models. The Finns have actually adapted a lot of former hostels into self-contained one-bedroom flats. I am not saying that I would necessarily follow that route in Scotland—I suspect that I would go for a more scattered approach to housing—but nevertheless there are financial incentives and leverage from the centre.

If, nationally, we decide that housing first is the right way to move forward, can you envisage using central budgets a bit more innovatively to incentivise local authorities to deal with some of the supply-side issues around housing first? I get that the statutory duty sits with the 32 local authorities, but we are developing a national action plan and we need to strike the right balance between driving leadership from the centre and allowing local discretion.

I will look very carefully at the action group’s recommendations and, beyond that, I will look very carefully at your committee’s findings. I have the report of your trip to Finland, convener, but I have not read it in as much depth as I would like to. Once I have done so, I might have a number of questions to ask you about your visit to find out more about what is working in that country. We come at the issue from a different angle from the Finnish—we have different legislation and stronger homelessness rights—but I am willing to look at good examples from anywhere and everywhere to try to get this right.

I would not want to push from the centre a system that might not work in a particular place. The delivery of housing first is likely to be very different in the likes of Glasgow or Edinburgh to what it would be in some of our more rural towns and areas, and we have to allow that flexibility. That said, I am always willing to look at all aspects of best practice, wherever it might be, and at how we can take it and get it right for people.

As for budgets, the ending homelessness together fund gives us an opportunity to pilot certain initiatives and see what works and what does not work. That will allow others to look at their budgets and at where they might need to realign them, whether we are talking about local authority budgets or our own budget. We might need to do a wee bit of learning from some of the pilot initiatives that we will inevitably have to put in place in order to find out where we are likely to go.

That is very helpful. I suspect that I speak for the committee when I say that we would appreciate having an on-going dialogue, perhaps not even as part of a formal evidence-taking session. That kind of discussion would be very helpful, and I think that we might take you up on your offer to tell you at a later date about our experiences elsewhere. Thank you for that, minister.

I will now take supplementaries from Kenneth Gibson and Graham Simpson.

10:45  

My point leads on from what the convener has said. Minister, you said that you do not really favour a push from the centre, but that is the model that worked in Finland, because there was a need to get buy-in from all parties and people around the country. I am pretty sure that the mayor of Helsinki, who was the housing minister at the time when that came forward, emphasised to us that that was the only way to get a significant delivery of housing first. Last week, the witnesses at the committee overwhelmingly said that housing first should be implemented at the earliest possible opportunity.

I have a couple of questions. First, you talked about 40 per cent of allocations being for homeless people. Should housing be built specifically for homeless people? That is what they do in Finland, as it is the model that they feel works, whether in scattered housing or in the more communal approach.

Secondly, there has been a lot of talk this morning about cross-cutting budgets and the ending homelessness together fund. What cost benefit analysis work has the Scottish Government done on the impact of housing first relative to other homeless provisions that we have in Scotland and with regard to not just the costs of delivering such a model, but the resulting savings in local government, health and justice?

I talked about not wanting a push from the centre. I meant that I certainly want a push from the centre to make sure that folk are doing all that they can to eradicate rough sleeping and homelessness, but I do not want to be dictatorial and inflexible about which system they should use. Perhaps I got my wording a little bit wrong, as there is definitely a push from the centre to eradicate rough sleeping and to provide the right services for homeless people.

Whether we should provide housing for homeless people only is a difficult question to answer, and there are many views on that. In my days on the council, we ensured that temporary accommodation was spread throughout the city. The logic was to ensure that folk with families could still send their children to the same school and have their family support networks. The same went for individuals, as taking someone away from their family support network and putting them at the other end of the city is not particularly wise. In some cases, it might be a good idea to have folk together and to build the right accommodation for folk who are homeless but, in other cases, we need flexibility so that support networks are still there. There is not one right way of doing it, and Mr Gibson—

I am sorry to interrupt, but that is exactly what I was saying.

We could definitely look at that and I am willing to have further informal or formal discussions about your experiences.

On Mr Gibson’s question about cost benefit analysis, some work is going on in Renfrewshire on that. We need to do much more work on that front, so we will continue to look at that situation. Without a doubt, however, without necessarily having all the figures behind it, we can clearly see from the evaluation of housing first by Turning Point Scotland that individuals’ lives have changed and that a huge amount of spend on crisis, which is always the most costly element, is not happening.

I think that we can share the cost benefit analysis from Renfrewshire, but I do not think that that analysis goes far enough yet. We will continue to do more work in looking at cost benefit analysis. I point to the reports that already exist that show crises, and therefore crisis spending, going down. Such preventative spend is definitely the way in which we should move forward. I will share the Renfrewshire stuff that we have and try to provide the committee with more cost benefit analysis as we move on.

I want to give a time check. We are beyond our time. Graham Simpson has a supplementary question, and Elaine Smith and Andy Wightman have specific lines of questioning that are still outstanding. I intend to take both. I know that this is a forlorn hope, but I hope to have them disposed of by around 11 o’clock. I am in the hands of members and the minister on how we get on with that.

I am happy with that, convener.

My question follows on from what Mr Gibson and Mr Doris asked about and the committee’s visit to Finland. The housing first programme there was driven by a Government minister, who is now the mayor of Helsinki. He did not force the programme on councils, but he got buy-in from them. It seems to me that that is the way to do it. He comes across as quite a charismatic guy—I see that the minister is smiling—and he managed to get buy-in from the 10 biggest councils. His starting point was, “We do not want to see homeless shelters in our cities.” Finland does not have those any more, as they have been converted.

Minister, are you prepared to perform that role as a housing first leader or champion in Scotland to get councils on board without forcing them to do things, to persuade them, and to put in extra resources? That was also done in Finland.

The answer to that is simply yes, although I do not know whether I would be regarded as charismatic.

One of the key things that I have done over the piece is to bring local authorities together with a mix of folk—not only folk at the director and head of service level, but folk at the front line—to try to ensure that we are all on the right path. I want to ensure that best practice is exported right across the country, and I want every local authority to do its very best to help the most vulnerable folk in our society. They have a huge amount to benefit from in the ways in which things have been done being changed. We cannot have a situation in which we deal only with crises; we have to move to a situation in which we help people with their needs and become more person centred.

If we look at the homelessness journey that we have travelled on in Scotland since 2010, we see that the number of folk who have presented as homeless has reduced by 39 per cent. We can continue to ensure that we are building new homes on that journey. Getting folk who do not need any additional support into houses is quite easy in some regards. We now need to concentrate on more vulnerable folks who have much more complex needs, and we must ensure that services are aligned to help them to be able to sustain tenancies. That will take a huge amount of work. As the First Minister outlined, the programme for government shows that that is a priority for the Government.

On what I have done since taking office, particularly in going out and speaking to folk, I realise that we have a journey to go on. I want to be in the driving seat on that journey and I want to take folk with me to ensure that we do our very best for folk out there. Some of this will not be easy. We require a degree of partnership working with not just local authorities but the third sector and other stakeholders, to make sure that we get this absolutely right.

The recommendations that we get from the action group will set us on the right track. After it has done its work, we must continue beyond that to ensure that we deliver. The reinvigoration of the homelessness prevention and strategy group, which I co-chair with COSLA, is vital in ensuring that we continue on that journey and get absolutely the right services in place right across the country.

I am sorry if that took too long, convener.

That is okay, minister.

People in Finland would say that housing first has not ended rough sleeping completely but that it has ended rough sleeping as they used to know it. One service user told us that the big challenge for the third wave of the policy is to engage with those who have completely opted out of engaging with services and are sleeping in tents in the forests in Finland.

Housing first is not a magic bullet to solve rough sleeping. It is a great speedy pathway through which people can engage with services at the first point of crisis. It is important to put that on the record. When a big initiative pops up, it can be seen as a magic bullet. We are not saying that; we are just very keen to see how it can be rolled out successfully in Scotland.

There are two lines of questioning left. I will bring in Elaine Smith MSP for the first one, to be followed by Andy Wightman MSP.

Minister, you mentioned the STV documentary. In that programme, the issue of standards of temporary accommodation was raised, and I will ask you about that. In the “Fairer Scotland Action Plan”, the Scottish Government committed to developing minimum standards for temporary accommodation based on the equivalent standards for permanent social housing. How do you see that being achieved and when will the changes be introduced? I appreciate that, given the timescales, you might want to write to us with further detail.

I know the interest that Ms Smith has in that issue and I am more than willing to meet her again if that is what she wants.

The action group will look at temporary accommodation, including minimum standards. Ms Smith is well aware that I want to ensure that temporary accommodation is of the best possible standard. Eighty-two per cent of families in temporary accommodation are in mainstream social housing, and I want that figure to grow. I do not want to rely on unsuitable accommodation.

As the committee is aware, the Government has reduced the amount of time that folk can spend in unsuitable accommodation from 14 days to seven days. I would rather that that was zero days, but I am aware—as the committee will be—that in emergency situations something has to be put in place quickly. Beyond that, in rural areas, particularly in smaller places, it is often difficult to give folk temporary accommodation in social housing. Rather than have folk move away to other places, we must have some flexibility. The action group will look at minimum standards in some depth, and we will look at its recommendations.

I was horrified by what one woman said in the STV documentary, and I will follow that up. I want to know exactly what happened and what accommodation that family was put into, so that that can never happen again.

11:00  

Thank you, minister. I might take you up on that kind offer. I am sure that all members of the committee are interested in the issues.

There has been a suggestion that the order that you mentioned could be extended to other groups, such as young people. I will leave that sitting for now.

I turn to the issue of what happens when people present as homeless. It is widely acknowledged that we have some of the best homelessness legislation in Europe, if not more widely, but we heard evidence that people sometimes cannot access their rights under that legislation. For example, Thomas Lyon, who gave evidence to the committee, had spent six and a half years on the streets in Glasgow until the Legal Services Agency had him put into a temporary furnished flat. From what we hear, there seems to be some kind of gatekeeping going on. I am sure that members will know from their constituency casework that people sometimes have to seek assistance from the LSA or the Govan Law Centre and then go back to the local authority to tell it what their rights are. How do you respond to some of the concerns that we have heard about that?

First, I thank the organisations that advocate on behalf of homeless people. Ms Smith mentioned a number of them, but there are many others, and hats off to them.

People should not have those difficulties. Last year, we had the situation in which Alasdair Codona went on hunger strike outside the Parliament. I went and spoke to him about his experiences, as did Mr Wightman. There was a lot of concern about gatekeeping in Glasgow City Council at that time. The Scottish Housing Regulator has been looking at the issue closely—I mentioned the journeys that the regulator has looked at. I would be extremely unhappy if that kind of gatekeeping was going on. I would want to know about it and I would want the Scottish Housing Regulator to be made aware of it, too. People have rights in legislation, and no one should be acting as a gatekeeper.

Andy Wightman wants to follow up on some of those issues, so I will leave it there.

That is helpful—thank you.

I have a few brief questions, minister, and, with respect, there is no need to elaborate too greatly in your answers. We heard from the Legal Services Agency that it regards the code of guidance on homelessness as being out of date. Are you happy to consider updating it?

We will consider what the action group has to say. I am willing to consider most things, as Mr Wightman is well aware. We need to have a good hard look at the current 150 pages of guidance and make any necessary changes, based on not only the recommendations of the action group but the further work that will no doubt go on in the homelessness prevention and strategy group.

We have heard views about putting the housing options approach on a statutory basis. Do you have a view on that?

Housing options is being done voluntarily, and it has worked particularly well under the voluntary set-up. I know that other jurisdictions are looking at putting the approach on a statutory footing, and I will look at what comes out of that although, as I have said previously, legislation is not always the panacea for everything. Housing options is working well. If, at any point, it transpired that that was not the case, I would rethink my position. I will also look at what comes out of the work that is being done in other jurisdictions.

I have a final question. Elaine Smith mentioned the witness Thomas Lyon, who gave evidence on 20 September. He opened his comments by saying:

“The reason that I became homeless was that I had a private let at the time and the council was paying for it, but my landlord went bankrupt.”—[Official Report, Local Government and Communities Committee, 20 September 2017; c 46.]

We are about to consider commencement orders for the Private Housing (Tenancies) (Scotland) Act 2016. Is it right or wrong that people such as Thomas Lyon should be plunged into the nightmare of homelessness merely because their landlord goes bankrupt?

We should do everything possible to ensure that folk do not enter homelessness. We know that various situations arise in people’s lives that are not of their making. From my constituency experience, I know that in certain cases local authorities could do more through services to keep folk out of homelessness.

But is it right or wrong that he should have been made homeless because his landlord went bankrupt?

In almost every case, it is wrong that somebody becomes homeless. I do not know the specifics of that case, so it is difficult for me to comment on it. However, when circumstances are not of people’s own making, local authorities and others should step up to the plate to help them out of those situations.

That concludes this evidence session and agenda item, so I thank the minister and his officials.

Before I suspend the meeting briefly to allow the witnesses to change—the minister is staying with us, of course—I say to members that we will have a comfort break once we have disposed of the statutory instruments.

11:05 Meeting suspended.  

11:07 On resuming—