Chamber and committees

I have two high-level questions and then a couple more that will get into a bit more detail and expand on your earlier points. The first question is about the second provision in the bill. The top of the bill almost sets out its purpose, which is to

“reduce economic and wealth inequality”.

That is great. Its purpose is also to

“support economic growth in and across Scotland”.

Is economic growth the right thing for the bill to try to achieve? Is growth, which is presumably measured in gross domestic product, a measure of an effective economy? Is it a measure of a prosperous economy? Is that the right thing to have right at the top of the bill?

My final question is on the relevant and specified bodies lists, which I have a few issues with, but I wondered about your thoughts. One of my issues is that some of the bodies on the specified public bodies list have vast tracts of land and other assets, but other bodies do not, so they are wildly unequal in terms of what they can bring to the table for community wealth building.

What are your thoughts on that and on whether all the right organisations are included? I notice that although regional colleges are on the relevant bodies list, local colleges, community councils and other organisations such as health boards are not. Are the enterprise agencies in the right place on the list? Do you have any thoughts about the lists?

My second question is more about local authorities. In the survey that was conducted among local authorities and the community wealth building practitioners network, only eight of Scotland’s 32 local authorities said that they were already leading on a community wealth building strategy and action plan. That is a quarter. What is the status of our local authorities in terms of their knowledge, ability, willingness and resources to make progress here?

That is useful. I want to delve a bit further into that point and some of the points that Councillor Forson made about how community wealth building partnerships might be made effective and cross the implementation gap, rather than just adding another layer.

Do you want to add anything about the accountability, governance and structure of the partnerships and how to make them effective?

I will move on to questions about tax powers and fiscal powers. I am curious about whether you feel that there is an alignment between the intentions of the Scottish Government in the NSET and the decisions that it makes in the budget. When scrutinising the budget, I find it hard to understand how it contributes to the NSET, but maybe you have more insight into that.

My next question is about tax powers that are devolved to the Scottish Government. I am interested in your thoughts on how those powers, as well as revenue raising by local authorities, can be used to close regional gaps, tackle inequality and improve productivity.

The Scottish Government has limited powers of taxation in its own right, but it could bequeath more powers to local authorities through a form of council tax, for example. There are other ideas, such as cruise ship levies, carbon land tax and so on. Are those useful tools for tackling regional inequality and improving productivity in the regions?

Thank you.

I have one quick supplementary question about an observed regional inequality, which not everyone will want to come in on. When I travelled to Orkney over the Easter recess, I passed through Thurso and then on to Kirkwall, and I saw the difference between Thurso, with its boarded-up shop fronts, and Kirkwall, with its thriving shops and so on. I asked one of the councillors in Kirkwall about that, and he said—again, this is an anecdote, but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it—that, because such a large proportion of the economy in Orkney is in the public sector, including the council, people are able to maintain a higher quality of life than in Thurso, which has lacked similar investment. In short, for all that the public sector might be inefficient and lacking productivity, it is a tool that, anecdotally, I have seen can be used to manage regional inequality and regional economic success. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Yes—I will continue on the same theme. The financial press and so on certainly bemoan western democracies’ lack of productivity growth, so it would be useful if you can frame that for us a bit. Is improving productivity possible? Is it desirable? Does anyone know how to do it, because it seems like everybody is struggling? Is that really what we need to do in order to transform our economy and make it less unequal?

Thank you, minister, for joining us today. You are right that the new Government coming in is a nice reset.

I have a question about how Grangemouth fits into the wider energy strategy. The Scottish Government has a draft energy strategy, although it has been stalled for more than a year. The idea is that the strategy shows where our energy in Scotland will come from and how much energy demand there will be as we phase out and exit from North Sea gas and move to zero-carbon energy systems. For example, it shows why we do not need nuclear power in Scotland.

Grangemouth has been floated for all sorts of things, including carbon capture and storage—which is not a proven technology at scale—green hydrogen, blue hydrogen, biofuel for aviation and so on. How does that fit into the wider energy strategy? Is the UK Government developing an energy strategy along the lines of what the Scottish Government has done to chart the transition away from North Sea oil and gas and the importation of fossil fuels towards that zero-carbon future? How does Grangemouth fit into that?

There is always a concern that carbon capture, usage and storage—CCUS—does not work. It has not yet been proven to work at scale and it may not be a good investment as it is very expensive, and hydrogen may not live up to the potential that we think that it might have. Our worry would be that any investments in Grangemouth would therefore become white elephants and not be sustainable in the long term.

Can you give us a story about what the UK’s plan is for a wider energy strategy and how we fit into it?