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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Current session: 13 May 2021 to 3 November 2025
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Displaying 1732 contributions

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Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Good morning, cabinet secretary and officials. Thank you for joining us this morning. I have a couple of questions on slightly different but related points. I will stick with part 1 for now. Many stakeholders have said that the bill conflates religious observance with religious and moral education. Although that is the case in existing legislation, we have heard quite a lot of very clear evidence and very strong support for the view that it should not be possible to opt out of RME, because of its value and its educational role in our society. Why did the Government not take the opportunity with this legislation to make that distinction in law and say, “RME is core to our curriculum and we will not have young people opting out, whether it is them or their parents doing that, because it is a fundamental area of our education”?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. Those comments are useful, and they reinforce what Marie McNair said about the need for clear guidance on interpretation so that children and young people are not forced to take that step to seek clarification of whether an exemption should apply through the courts. We do not want our young people to have to do that. I hope that we would have systems in place that deal with some of those issues before court actions and court decisions are required. That was a helpful clarification.

Cabinet secretary, my final question relates to something that you said in your letter to the committee, in which you talked about engagement with the UK Government to explore the

“removal of any legislative restrictions that currently limit the Scottish Parliament’s ability to enhance human rights protections”.

You said that if there was no progress within the next 12 months, the Scottish Government would commission a review of UK acts. Can you say a little bit more about the rationale for the 12-month period and how those conversations with the UK Government are going?

11:15  

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

I was not suggesting that RME be put on a statutory footing.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

However, there is clear agreement that RME is distinct, and you said in your opening remarks that RME and RO are distinct. RME is a core part of curriculum for excellence, so why not take the opportunity to separate them in law? I am not saying that we should put one of them on a statutory footing; however, as CFE suggests, RME is core to young people’s understanding, education and development when it comes to learning how to be citizens and how to interact with, learn about and understand other faiths, belief systems and ethical questions.

Why give people the option to withdraw from that, given that some of our witnesses have suggested that doing so could be the thin edge of the wedge? If people do not like some of the science courses, can they opt out of them? That is the kind of question that we have wrestled with when gathering evidence. I am curious about why the decision was taken not to separate RO and RME, not necessarily about whether one or the other will not be put on a statutory footing.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

It is interesting that you talk about strengthening children’s rights and yet you are not proposing to give children that independent right. However—

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

I want to follow up on Rhoda Grant’s questions on the impact of part 2. Given the unlikelihood of incompatibility arising—we hope that, from now on, all bills will be drafted to be compatible with the 2024 act—how does the cabinet secretary see the exemption in part 2 affecting young people’s access to justice? You talked about that in the letter that you sent to the committee during recess, but could you explain a bit more how access to justice for young people will work following the exemption, if it is enacted?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

I suppose that, if young people are feeling othered or will not have those kinds of conversations with their teachers, that is a concern. Maybe that goes back to why RME is so important. How do we foster an inclusive culture of conversation, understanding and acceptance of difference? I wonder whether the cabinet secretary thinks that there is more that we can do. Maybe that is not about legislation at all, but about building a culture of inclusivity and acceptance. Are there other things, elsewhere, that we need to look at? The committee has looked at the public sector equality duty on local authorities and, therefore, on schools. Are we joining the dots on this?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Thank you. There will be different views on whether the matter could be dealt with through the bill. Linked to that, given the concluding observations of the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which has twice—in 2016 and in 2023—suggested that children should have the right to withdraw from collective worship, which means RO, not RME, can you give us more detail of why you have not gone down the route of enacting those recommendations, which have been made twice in the past nine years?

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

Yes.

Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee [Draft]

Children (Withdrawal from Religious Education and Amendment of UNCRC Compatibility Duty) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 28 October 2025

Maggie Chapman

We will come to that issue.