Chamber and committees

Do you think that the primary reason why there is a lack of understanding is that companies have operated on the basis of a single market across the European Union and they assume that the UK internal market is operating with the same standards across the UK? Is that because of that assumption?

Good morning to the panel. The report repeatedly mentions issues to do with businesses not understanding or appreciating that regulatory divergence could occur across the UK. Is more work being done, or could more work be done, to educate businesses and those who are likely to be affected about that possibility?

You mentioned the state of mind and the need for a different approach and culture. We have also heard about personalities and the people taking the decisions at UK Government level not wanting things to work. You mentioned that the Sewel convention has been breached 10 times since 2018 but, of course, from 1999 to 2010, when there was a Labour UK Government, it was not breached at all. Do you agree that there is an opportunity to change the mindset and the approach with a change of Government, and with a Labour Government coming in?

There are two more issues that I would like to highlight. One is childcare, which has come up as being a barrier to participation. We have heard from academics about the importance of getting people to participate in culture from a young age. If the Scottish Government has plans to extend childcare—in particular, out-of-school childcare—it must not only provide that but provide opportunities for people to have cultural and sporting tasters.

The other issue is the impact of church closures, which we have heard about quite a few times. I know that the Government does not make those closure decisions—churches make them. However, we have heard a number of witnesses express concerns about church closures. They are unique facilities, with unique acoustics, and they provide cultural activities. There might be a need to support groups and organisations to take over churches in the future.

Do you have any reflections on those two issues?

Yes; I do. Good morning, cabinet secretary. I share many of your concerns. I agree that the UK Government’s approach has been unacceptable, and it does not align with our views on devolution.

We have a new IGR model, but I am disappointed to hear from the cabinet secretary that there has been no meaningful change. I heard his frustration earlier about the two Governments not co-operating and his refuting of the suggestion that they were. I also acknowledge what he said about the Welsh Government and Mark Drakeford’s comments.

Notwithstanding the challenges that the Government faces in this area, does the cabinet secretary agree that it is notoriously difficult for the Parliament, let alone the public, to fully understand and appreciate how IGR meetings go and how the common frameworks discussions are going? Does he accept that we need more transparency? How would we achieve that? Do we need more reporting? Does that reporting need to come from UK Government ministers or Scottish Government ministers?

If the public sees the two Governments arguing all the time, unless there is greater transparency and more information in the public domain about the discussions, they might come to the conclusion that the cabinet secretary has suggested.

You touched on local community planning; I want to ask a follow-on question about Scottish Government planning at the national level. The themes of the inquiry have been very cross-cutting, and many of the issues that we have considered do not sit in your portfolio. For example, local government budgets and funding have a huge impact, as does public transport availability, which has been raised on a number of occasions. In particular, young people in Dumfries raised the importance of getting around and accessing cultural opportunities. How do you and your department engage with other ministers and departments to address the issues, so that there is joined-up thinking not just at local community level but at national level?

Thank you very much.

Thank you for those answers. I agree that that comes across as being a bit vague.

On being better connected, we have talked about the importance of attracting international visitors and I hear what the panel said about value not volume. However, there is also an issue to do with being connected and how people get here. I know that the evidence has mentioned route development and not just for tourism but for investment and trade. I am not saying that everything is bad in that regard. There have been some positive developments recently, such as a new flight from Edinburgh to the US. However, on getting the basics of being connected right, do you agree that more direct flights between Scotland and the rest of the world would be beneficial for tourism, trade and investment? That should be an indicator of the international work national outcomes that we are looking at.

Good morning, panel. I very much agree with the point about Scotland going up a gear in order to remain competitive. The Scottish Government has said that it wants Scotland to be better connected, and I think that that view is shared across the Parliament, but we have also heard about difficulties with measuring outcomes as well as concerns about a lack of indicators.

Do you think that we are getting the basics right with regard to which aspects of our international work we are monitoring and measuring? I am thinking, for example, of the number of visitors coming to Scotland. I was struck by Ms Miller’s point about the spend of international visitors being four times that of domestic visitors, and I was really encouraged by the tourism minister Richard Lochhead’s recent remark that visitor numbers have almost come back to pre-Covid pandemic levels. However, if we want to be better connected, if we want more people to come here and if we want this to remain an attractive place to come to, should we not have specific targets and outcomes for the number of visitors?

Does any of the other witnesses have any thoughts on that?