Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 21, 2017

Official Report 876KB pdf

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Urgent Question

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Combustible Cladding (Glasgow)

To ask the Scottish Government what action it took when Glasgow City Council informed it that 57 privately owned buildings have combustible cladding in their construction.

All 32 local authorities were asked on 20 June 2017 to provide information on the use of aluminium composite material—ACM—on private high-rise domestic buildings. By 9 August, 30 out of the 32 local authorities reported that no ACM cladding had been identified on private high-rise domestic buildings in their areas.

Due to their size, City of Edinburgh Council and Glasgow City Council needed more time to complete that intensive work. The Scottish Government offered support to assist in that exercise and City of Edinburgh Council accepted that offer. At a meeting of the ministerial working group on building and fire safety on 8 September, the group was updated that City of Edinburgh Council reported that no private high-rise domestic buildings with ACM cladding had been identified.

We also heard at that meeting that Glasgow City Council notified Scottish Government standards officials late on 5 September that 56 privately owned buildings might have some form of ACM cladding. The ministerial working group was not assured of the quality of information provided in the return from Glasgow City Council and agreed to seek further clarification and specifics on the matter. That is especially important as, depending on the type of ACM cladding, the extent of its use and how it has been installed as part of a cladding system, there may be no cause for concern.

The Scottish Government therefore wrote to Glasgow City Council on Tuesday 14 September to establish further details of the extent and type of ACM cladding that might be present and offered support and assistance in gathering together that work. We clarified that request yesterday and again offered the council support in obtaining the information.

As the member will know, that offer has now been accepted and we will work with Glasgow City Council to fully investigate and scrutinise the information that it has collected so that it can provide reassurance to occupants of private high-rise domestic buildings that their buildings are safe. Any further actions that are identified will be taken forward. The council is aiming to provide that information by the end of next week.

People across the United Kingdom, including in Scotland, watched the horror of Grenfell unfold. The tower’s combustible cladding was a major factor in the spread of the blaze. Now it has come to light that 57 private buildings in Glasgow containing numerous households have been constructed using the same combustible cladding.

Shockingly, when that became known by Glasgow City Council officials, they told ministers, but residents were not informed. If it were not for the scrutiny of this Parliament’s Local Government and Communities Committee, we would be none the wiser, and credit is due to the committee for that.

Why did the housing minister not tell Glasgow City Council to inform residents immediately in the interests of transparency? Does the cabinet secretary agree that failure to notify and reassure residents of their safety before this was made public, which it now is, was a monumental error and illustrates an unacceptable level of complacency? Has the cabinet secretary now fully briefed the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, which was also kept in the dark? Given that ministers knew on 8 September, can she demonstrate to Parliament that they have acted on this important matter with a sense of urgency?

I am grateful to Ms McNeill for her scrutiny and for her request for information.

That this Government moved quickly to establish a ministerial working group to ensure that we could provide the public with as much reassurance as possible about the safety of buildings in Scotland, following the tragic events at Grenfell, speaks volumes.

On the detailed questions about what we knew and when, it is important to clarify that, although Ms McNeill has assumed that we are talking about households, the information that the ministerial working group was given spoke of properties, and some of the gaps in the information related to that—it is all very well to talk about 56 properties, but a crucial question is how many of those are domestic properties.

It is also important to recognise that the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service sits on the ministerial working group and, like ministers and the Scottish Government, was aware of the incompleteness of the information that Glasgow had supplied.

I assure Ms McNeill that I expect my officials to work closely—and I know that they work closely—with all local government officials, including Glasgow officials. Let me be clear that before and after we requested follow-up information on 14 September, the housing minister has been actively engaged with officials in pressing for relevant information.

It is important to recognise the responsibilities of Glasgow City Council. In a letter today, Susan Aitken has made clear that the information that was presented to the Government was not “a complete picture”, which is the reason why Glasgow City Council did not make the information public.

I am pleased that Glasgow City Council has now accepted the Scottish Government’s offer of help in what is a detailed and onerous task. The council is seeking to provide the clarity that we require by the end of next week. I am also pleased that the leader of Glasgow City Council said that she has

“instructed officers to liaise immediately with the ... Scottish Fire and Rescue Service”.

I hope that I have covered all Ms McNeill’s questions. If I have omitted anything, I will of course duly follow it up with her.

The cabinet secretary has told the Parliament that the information that Glasgow City Council provided was incomplete. Surely the council could be under no illusion about the urgency of the matter. What did the Scottish ministers do when it became clear that they did not have information that should have been available to them? How can the cabinet secretary have faith in Glasgow City Council as it takes the matter forward?

I am sure that the cabinet secretary agrees that public reassurance is paramount. Can she demonstrate that the Government is in command of the situation and will do everything to restore the faith of residents? Can she say clearly that residents—I believe that there are residents who are affected—have now been contacted? Can she guarantee that the buildings are safe? If not, why not? When will she meet the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service to ensure that all the buildings are checked as soon as possible?

Let me respond in the spirit of Ms McNeill’s question. We do not for a minute abdicate our responsibilities as a Government. We recognise that, if we ask for information, we have a duty to scrutinise the information that we receive, so that we can have confidence in it and it can be used appropriately to identify action or to reassure residents and tenants.

Information is power, and the Government having knowledge places a responsibility on us, but that does not for a minute absolve any local authority, including Glasgow City Council, of its responsibilities. The leader of Glasgow City Council has said today that the council will provide the information that the Government requires, for public reassurance.

It is important to recognise that the gaps in the information so far do not enable a complete picture to be presented to either the owners of the buildings, who will have responsibilities, or, indeed, the residents of the buildings. It is also important to recognise that we take our responsibilities seriously and that, when the chief building standards officer said that he was not satisfied with the overall detail of information from Glasgow City Council, we followed that up after our discussion at the ministerial working group in correspondence to the council on 14 September. As I have said, the housing minister regularly meets her officials, who need to work with officials in local government.

I will give brief examples of the gaps in the information that was presented to us. Until those gaps are filled, we will not have the best information to inform the residents rightly. As I indicated earlier, we were not clear about the number of households involved and we did not have clear information about some of the buildings. It was not clear whether the material was aluminium composite material, where the material was, whether it was used extensively, and whether plans had been retrieved to find it. All of that information is important to be able to reassure the public.

I am clear that, as a Government, we have responsibilities, but Glasgow City Council has responsibilities, too. It has a lead responsibility on building standards as per the legislation, and it has enforcement duties. I am pleased by the correspondence that the leader of Glasgow City Council has sent to the Local Government and Communities Committee outlining the action that it will now take to work with the Government and inform residents as soon as the information is available. We have to give residents accurate information that is based on an accurate assessment of the situation.

A number of members want to ask supplementary questions. Members should try to keep their questions succinct and we will try to get through them.

Everyone who resides in an impacted property—that means tenants, not just owners—has a right to know as soon possible. I hope that the cabinet secretary agrees with that and agrees that there should be an absolute duty on local authorities to inform residents and the fire service.

Does the cabinet secretary agree that the fragmented nature of records across local government—particularly in Glasgow—is as unacceptable as it is antiquated? Does she agree that there is an overwhelming and essential need for a reliable and robust national database so that, if there is ever a need in the future to interrogate high-rise safety, we never find ourselves in the sorry mess that we are in?

Let me be clear to Mr Doris and Ms McNeill that residents indeed have the right to know, but they have the right to know accurate information that accurately portrays whether there is a problem and how, if there is a problem, it will be addressed. That information needs to be made available to residents and building owners as soon as is practically possible, and Glasgow City Council has given commitments on that.

Mr Doris’s point about the fragmented nature of records is interesting. We recognise that it has been an onerous task for Glasgow City Council and the City of Edinburgh Council to work through records to establish matters and answer questions such as whether there is aluminium composite material in domestic private high-rises. Therefore, we as a Government have offered proactively to help with that. The national database issue is certainly interesting, and the ministerial working group will look at it further.

Yesterday, the Local Government and Communities Committee heard with disbelief the news that 57 properties in Glasgow have ACM cladding and that residents in the affected properties have not been told. For once, I am not laying the blame at Kevin Stewart’s door; I think that it is the responsibility of Glasgow City Council. It has a responsibility to the citizens of Glasgow. If it has the information, it should share that information straight away.

The ministerial working group made repeated offers of help in emails to the council, but they were refused. Does the cabinet secretary agree that, frankly, that is unacceptable, and that Glasgow City Council should immediately inform the residents in the affected blocks and immediately contact the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service?

Mr Simpson reflects the fact that the ministerial working group was certainly left with more questions than answers, which was similar to the Local Government and Communities Committee’s experience yesterday. I point him to the fact that, although aspects of the experience are less than desirable, the Government recognised the onerous task that we were placing on local government, following the tragic events at Grenfell, by asking—rightly—for assurances and detailed information. We recognised that the task was onerous and we proactively offered to help. It took until the third offer before Glasgow City Council accepted that help.

I am pleased that the political intervention from the council’s leader has led to the council accepting help from the Scottish Government in carrying out its responsibilities. In the council leader’s letter today to Bob Doris, who is the convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee, she has also said that she has instructed her officers to engage

“immediately with the local Scottish Fire and Rescue Service”.

There will be valuable lessons to learn from all this. I repeat that, although residents indeed have the right to know, we must have the right information to give them; otherwise, we might give them false information or cause them undue alarm. We must have clarity for residents as soon as possible.

There are four more questions, cabinet secretary.

I very much agree with the sense of urgency that was conveyed in Pauline McNeill’s question. What process will be used to ensure that all residents, including private rented sector tenants, are given the information that they need, particularly when there has been high turnover of new student tenancies in Glasgow? Will the cabinet secretary clarify whether a private landlord would be acting within the law by letting out a property in a building that proved to be unsafe on the basis of its cladding?

Mr Harvie points to the fact that private landlords and property owners have responsibilities under building safety and fire regulations. He asks for reassurance that residents will receive the information that they are entitled to and about the way in which that information will be shared once it is available. Mr Stewart or I will discuss that directly with Glasgow City Council. We may even need to rely on a door-to-door exercise, rather than a desktop or correspondence exercise.

We will take the member’s point very much on board. When the information becomes available, we will want to reassure tenants and advise of any action that is required. We want to ensure that every resident who is entitled to the information receives it.

The cabinet secretary will know that, given the access issues, carrying out remedial work on high-rise properties can be a significant burden. Should significant work be required, what assistance will the Scottish Government and Glasgow City Council be able to provide to residents through finance and the co-ordination of the necessary remedial work?

That point is fair and important. However—first things first—we need to find out the facts and what issues there are, if any. We then need to establish what action has to be taken, who pays for that and how. I am alive to that issue.

I want to clarify the process. The cabinet secretary said that the Government became aware of inadequate information on 5 September but did not write to the council until 14 September. Given the urgency of the matter, might it have been more appropriate to pick up the phone?

Is the cabinet secretary suggesting that the council leader did not know that there was a problem until yesterday, when the Local Government and Communities Committee addressed the matter, given that she is now reassuring the cabinet secretary that she will take action? Further, is the cabinet secretary aware that Glasgow City Council is only now reconstituting its scrutiny committee? Does she agree that that delay was unacceptable, bearing in mind the interests of transparency and giving confidence to the people of Glasgow about such matters? Will she urge the council’s leadership to co-operate with a more open and transparent approach to the council’s business, so that the issue that yesterday appeared to come as a surprise to the council leader will not arise again, given the gravity of the safety issues concerned?

Scrutiny and transparency are always good—the Government has led by example through the ministerial working group on fire safety and building standards. I am sure that all our colleagues at Glasgow City Council will have heard the remarks that Ms Lamont and others have made. Those issues are mainly for the council.

As I confirmed, the Government received information from Glasgow City Council late on 5 September. We discussed that information in great detail at the ministerial working group that met on the afternoon of Friday 8 September. Correspondence was sent to the council on 14 September. Ms Lamont will appreciate that, for clarity, it is important to put such matters in writing, to ensure that there is a record. I assure her that my officials and the chief building standards officer are never, ever afraid of picking up the phone to any local authority officer, including those in Glasgow.

The handling of the issue by the Scottish Government and Glasgow City Council has been far from satisfactory and leaves both parties accused of a cover-up. In the interests of transparency, will the cabinet secretary commit to publishing full details of all discussions in all government forums, between all government officials, in relation to the issue?

I reject Mr Kelly’s analysis. The ministerial working group has a web page on which we publish minutes. Yesterday, Mr Stewart wrote to the Local Government and Communities Committee and included correspondence that we sent to Glasgow City Council. I reject the member’s claims.

Members are free to ask questions and make requests for information from the Government. We are willing to be open. However, I emphasise that we must get the right information to residents as soon as possible. We have a responsibility to get accurate information.

Publish the information.

We do publish the information. I urge Mr Kelly to have a wee look at it.

I thank members and ministers for their time. I am conscious that there is a lot of interest in the subject, not least from Mr Doris, the convener of the Local Government and Communities Committee. However, I believe that the matter will come before that committee, and I urge members to take their interest there. We have given the matter some time this afternoon.