Constitution, Europe, External Affairs and Culture Committee

Meeting date: Thursday, March 2, 2023

Official Report 638KB pdf

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BBC (Digital-first Agenda)

Agenda item 3 is an evidence session on the proposed schedule changes to Radio Scotland’s music programmes within the context of the impact of the BBC’s digital-first agenda on broadcasting output in Scotland. We are joined this morning by Steve Carson, director of BBC Scotland, and Louise Thornton, BBC Scotland’s head of commissioning. I invite Mr Carson to make an opening statement.

Thank you. Good morning, convener and members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to speak to this committee of the Scottish Parliament this morning. I am pleased to be here alongside Louise Thornton, head of commissioning for BBC Scotland.

I will give you a brief overview of our music strategy in order to bring you up to date before inviting questions. The context of our music strategy is that on-demand or so-called digital listening to music has tripled in the last five years, while live radio listening across the board has decreased over the same period. More and more people are listening to on-demand audio, and the podcast market is seeing significant growth. In fact, according to Ofcom research last year, music streaming in Scotland has now become as popular as listening to live radio on a radio set.

That is, of course, happening across the industry. Our live radio services are crucial to us and will remain crucial, but audience patterns are changing, and the BBC needs to change with them to stay relevant. The good news is that audiences are coming to us on new services such as BBC Sounds as well as on BBC Radio Scotland. In the last quarter, there were more than 4.7 million plays of BBC Scotland-originated content on BBC Sounds, and BBC Radio Scotland remains the second-most listened to station in this nation.

Keeping in line with audience behaviour requires change. The financial context is that we cannot move to where our audiences are moving and, at the same time, do all that we currently do in exactly the same way. We recognise the privileged position that we are in with the licence fee but, since 2010, the BBC’s income has fallen by 30 per cent in real terms. Of course, like every business and every creative and cultural institution in Scotland, we are facing limitations on our income against a background of high inflation.

I also want to make it clear that, although the financial background is challenging, there is real ambition behind this strategy. We are passionate about showcasing Scotland’s music and about finding, backing and promoting Scottish talent to audiences here and around the world. We now have a range of services such as BBC Sounds, BBC iPlayer, the Scotland channel and BBC Alba, alongside our traditional live radio services, with which to do that.

The headlines around our strategy have focused on us making changes to the team that makes our piping programme and changes to the format of classical music on BBC Radio Scotland, alongside the decision to decommission “Jazz Nights”. That is part of the story, but within the context that I have just outlined, the story includes some of the following factors, which I would like to brief the committee on.

There will still be a classical music programme on Radio Scotland every week. We invest £5 million of licence fee-payers’ money in our BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra every year. We are proud to do so; it is a world-class orchestra. Going forward, we will hear many more of its concerts on Radio Scotland. We are also looking at working with other orchestras in Scotland to share their music more widely on our new classics programme on Sunday evenings, which will now be focused entirely on Scottish orchestras.

We are launching two new national competitions—one for classical musicians and one for jazz musicians—along the lines of the extremely successful BBC Radio Scotland young traditional musician of the year competition. Our strategy is ambitious about our role in developing new talent in Scotland—something that Louise Thornton, our head of commissioning, is particularly passionate about. We will have four targeted development programmes for Scottish musical talent alone, in addition to all of the work that we do to find and support Scottish talent in other genres.

We are expanding the remit of “The Afternoon Show” to include interviews about the jazz sector. Jazz music will be part of the mix of live music on “The Quay Sessions”. I point out that “The Afternoon Show” is exceptional across the BBC in putting arts and culture content out every weekday at peak time on daytime radio.

In addition to the radio offer, we are launching a new culture podcast, we are securing a commission to make a new series about jazz for BBC Radio 2 and we will have a piping programme in the current slot on Radio Scotland that will be made in collaboration with our Gaelic service, BBC Radio nan Gàidheal. We are also commissioning a new piping podcast, which will take Scotland’s music to a wider and potentially global audience.

Of course, we understand the passion and loyalty that people feel towards programmes that they value and love, but we believe that we can creatively deliver for classical, jazz and piping audiences in new ways that will help our content and Scottish talent reach as wide an audience as possible.

Louise Thornton and I look forward to discussing this in more detail with the committee.

Thank you very much. I am sure that you will have seen the session that we had last week with some of the artists and institutions involved, who raised their concerns about the changes. I asked the members of that panel about the charter renewal, which was, I guess, the last big discussion that we had about these issues. At that time, Fiona Hyslop made it clear that it was really important that creative talent should be supported in Scotland, that the unique culture of Scotland be reflected, and that she expected the BBC to support that. Thinking about the internationally recognised status of our Royal Conservatoire of Scotland and about the fact that jazz is a big part of that, and recognising how successful the “Young Traditional Musician of the Year” programme is—I am glad to hear that that success has been replicated across other areas—do you feel that, in what will be happening, you will meet the charter objectives of that uniquely Scottish provision for a Scottish audience?

Yes, we absolutely do. We remain absolutely committed to broadcasting the best of Scottish culture and to looking at our budgets to make sure that we add value. We are part of the wider BBC portfolio, but it is important in Scotland that we offer distinctive output that really celebrates the talent that we have, and also that we work in partnership with organisations such as the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, with which we have a really healthy dialogue.

We understand the passion in relation to these changes and we understand that change is difficult. These decisions are not easy, but we have to go where the audience is and reflect changes in consumption, and we have to have the budget in order to be able to spend in an efficient way.

These are part of a wider raft of changes. We have looked across each of these programmes and genres and thought hard about how we can continue to offer distinctive content and a uniquely Scottish offering. We are excited about the jazz competition and about BBC Scotland having that relationship with new talent coming through and really owning that as a competition throughout its services. Radio Scotland will be the home of that competition, but, as we saw with the young traditional musician of the year competition, it will come through all our platforms and services, and it will be possible for that talent to be exposed in lots of different ways.

We also feel really excited about the direction of travel of “The Afternoon Show” and about launching a new culture podcast for Scotland. We should be doing these things. The easiest thing in commissioning is to do nothing; we could sit here and do the same programmes we always have, but we must look at the data and at how audiences are changing and what they expect of us.

We are moving into the podcast space—BBC Sounds—where we are seeing growth. We now have our own rail for Scotland on BBC Sounds and will be able to offer a podcast that really celebrates culture in Scotland, where we will hear stories of talented musicians from jazz and all of the other genres and will be able to hear those performances come through as well.

The third part is what we are doing with our live output. “The Quay Sessions” is a really good brand that gets audience recognition. We feel that that is a great place for us to start bringing through more live performances by jazz musicians, where we can get more exposure and use our platforms and budget in the best way.

Mr Carson, do you want to comment?

I will just echo what Louise has said. We are confident that we go well beyond our charter obligations, but I stress that we do that out of passion and because we want to do it, and not purely from a regulatory point of view. Overall, we are trying to use the whole portfolio in Scotland and the range of services that we now have, which we know audiences want, to make our content more widely available. If you put jazz and those other musical genres in “The Afternoon Show”—which is a really big audience proposition that we are proud to have—there is more chance of audiences finding them. At the moment, the nature of broadcasting is that, if there is a specific show to cover that genre, other shows tend to back away from it. We are trying to integrate it much more across our portfolio.

Louise Thornton, you said that you have to go where the audience is. Are audience numbers the main driver in decision making?

It is not just audience data. It is trends and qualitative responses from audiences saying that they expect Radio Scotland to be a modern service—linear is very strong, but there is a question about how we are moving across platforms. As Steve said, we also have a challenging financial backdrop and need to spend efficiently. Yes, we look at audience data and verbatims, but, as a general part of commissioning practice, we also look at how we are spending money and think about whether we are getting the best value for the licence fee.

I heard recently that a German national radio station has commissioned a series of programmes about the Scottish jazz scene. It is showcasing Scottish jazz talent and is very excited about it. Do you not think that it is pretty shameful that our national radio broadcaster is not creating that space for Scottish talent but a German national radio broadcaster is?

With these changes, we are trying to give jazz more prominence. We are moving those stories into “The Afternoon Show”, which is fantastic. As I said, we are really excited about the cultural podcast for Scotland. That is exactly where those stories can be told and where that celebration of talent will be able to happen.

Sixty per cent of the track listings on “Jazz Nights” are by Scottish artists, a great proportion of whom are emerging artists. There is no way that you can get that kind of coverage in “The Afternoon Show” or within the formats of linear programmes on Radio 2 or Radio 3 that end up on BBC Sounds. It simply cannot be done. You are constraining that genre. You are constraining the creativity and the talent of that genre into tiny little slots within mainstream programmes; are you not?

It is a fair point. We will not have the volume that we used to have with a show that played out in a certain part of the schedule.

Do you acknowledge that that will damage jazz?

The strategy is about getting more exposure, investing in bigger brands and looking at audience behaviours. We have a fantastic digital team in Scotland that creates content to support the podcast, “The Quay Sessions”, “The Afternoon Show” and the jazz competition. We are trying to lean into bigger moments and bigger brands, and to use our money more effectively to get more exposure.

There is a twofold strategy here. As you said, there is a vibrant Scottish jazz scene. We are having to look at how we best serve and best reflect that. One option is to stay as we are and have a specialist programme every week. Again, on linear radio, despite Radio Scotland being incredibly popular and diverse, its audience is likely to decline. Are we, then, to allow that market and audience for Scottish jazz to decline? If we do what Louise proposes—that is, put jazz music at the heart of bigger things—that will not happen. Bear in mind that we are having a new talent competition for jazz musicians and are focusing hard on what we in Scotland can do, as you say, that other BBC stations will not be able to do. What we can do is help to nurture, identify and find Scottish jazz talent, and that is exactly the initiative that Louise is behind.

10:45  

Your linear programme “Jazz Nights” is a long-standing slot; it has been there for years. It influenced Tommy Smith and many others. That is on BBC Sounds, so it is available. I imagine that you could do more to promote that.

Let us imagine that you are an aspiring young jazz musician who has spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours improving your skills and are about to make that breakthrough. You could enter the competition that the BBC intends to set up and get some exposure through that, but where do you go then? If there is nowhere to play your music, if you are restricted to one tiny slot on the afternoon show, if there is no specialist Scottish jazz programme on the BBC any more and if your ability to get on to BBC Radio 2 and BBC Radio 3 programmes is highly constrained, where do you take that? I can see that you are nurturing talent up to a certain level, but you are then cutting away the platform where they can get exposure, raise their profile and go on to develop their career. Where is the progression if you are a young Scottish jazz artist?

Part of our strategy about having a relationship with talent is how we can get them into different parts of the schedule. We just had a really successful Hogmanay programme through which we celebrated lots of different artists. We have moments in the cultural calendar, such as Burns night, for which we would like to do more. We feel that we can do more in our schedule and on our platforms by using those moments to bring through musical talent with whom we have a relationship.

Let us just get this clear: will cutting “Jazz Nights” mean more or less airtime for young, emerging Scottish talent in the jazz scene?

These are new ways of doing the same thing.

But is it more or less?

You are quite right to make the point about the talent competition, but it is very significant that the young traditional musician competition is an enormous moment in the schedules across the services. You are right: we will then need to go beyond that. Jazz musicians can feature in “The Quay Sessions”. Traditionally, they have not featured; the new strategy is that they will. There are various stepping stones through the services. Of course, we are linked into the wider BBC portfolio. Our job is to help nurture not just young talent but new, emerging talent and established talent and to provide pathways in our services and on to other BBC services. As I mentioned, we are making a jazz series for Radio 2.

To come back to my fundamental question: will there be more or less airtime for Scottish jazz talent as a result of your cutting “Jazz Nights” and the reforms that you have proposed?

By volume, there will be less airtime for Scottish jazz, but it will reach potentially bigger audiences.

Right. Thank you: there will be less airtime for Scottish jazz as a result of that.

What expertise do you have in commissioning across the three genres to which you propose to make changes and cuts? What kind of musical expertise do you, as commissioners, have in those areas?

We are broadcasters. We have a range of backgrounds and experiences in the team. We are held to the highest editorial standards. We work across a portfolio of genres. We have access to amazing skills and experience among the suppliers and the talent with whom we work. We fully engage in creative conversations as part of our daily conversation. We are here for the audience, ultimately, and that is a skill that we bring. We look across a broad portfolio, and we adhere to editorial excellence.

Right, but you do not have specific skills in those musical genres. I suppose that my question is this: do you understand those musical genres, how important they are and the educational aspect for the listening public—the importance of having a curated show that takes the listener on a journey to understand that musical genre?

We are not professors of music, nor would we purport to be, because we are broadcasters.

I do not want you to be a professor, but as I say, do you have expertise in commissioning?

Yes, we are absolutely passionate about the arts, music and culture in Scotland, and that is what we are here for.

Scottish music of all genres and Scottish arts and culture are heavily featured throughout our entire output. It is a key part of what we do, and we have expertise in commissioning that.

I thank the witnesses for coming along today.

I appreciate that we are all working in difficult financial straits. In my previous role at the BBC, I was involved with this side of things.

I am interested in the archive and what we could be losing by not having live performances. When you are making radio programmes, the archive plays a large part, and we need to keep increasing it. You are custodians of a vast archive of Scottish cultural music and so on.

We are, and we have a huge production archive. There are different rights issues in what we can allow access to. We do not hold rights in perpetuity for everything.

Through the strategy, we are trying to ensure that we still have live performances coming through the schedule so that we can add to the archive. As I said, we are broadening out what “The Quay Sessions” does. We are creating a cultural podcast that will have performance and those elements within it. We add value within the piping community, because we feel that launching the new podcast addresses the huge concern that existed about where the piping archive lives. The podcast will give us the opportunity to have those original recordings in a prominent place on BBC Sounds that can reach an audience wider than Scotland and the UK, because there is an international market for them as well.

You will have watched last week’s evidence session, when we took evidence from musicians that programmes were already reaching an international audience. In response to questions that Mark Ruskell asked, there was concern that that could be lost. There is also a question of how the archive is grown. All the musicians who came last week talked about the pleasure and the positive memories that they had of recording for BBC Scotland.

The witnesses at last week’s meeting commented on the impact on community music and how you will continue to grow that. My colleague Sarah Boyack and I attended an interesting meeting of the cross-party group on culture and communities on Tuesday night, and there was a comment about the privilege of imagination and play, which really struck me. I have been thinking about that, and BBC Scotland is in a privileged position to enable imagination and play to happen across Scotland and across Scottish communities and culture. I am concerned that the solutions that you have put forward, specifically for jazz, might not allow imagination and play to continue in that musical genre.

From the piping perspective, Finlay MacDonald gave us an important insight into how different communities in Scotland view piping and the different stories behind it. I am concerned that that might be lost. How will you mitigate and compensate for the concerns that were raised by musicians last week?

We have an amazing outreach programme with our Scottish Symphony Orchestra. We do amazing work with communities all year round, and that will continue—it will not change. As we said, we are bringing the SSO much more into Radio Scotland to get a more coherent offer for the audience.

For the piping community, we will still have a piping programme on Radio Scotland in the same slot—that will not change. The way that we do the programme is changing because we need to spend money more efficiently, reflect audience changes and invest in digital. However, we get a great audience for the world pipe band championships. It is brilliant, and it is a multiplatform offer.

I want to be able to invest in and grow those moments in which we can really celebrate piping, which is something uniquely Scottish that we can take to the rest of the world. Having that podcast moment prominently on BBC Sounds as a marketing opportunity is where we see such moments engaging audiences and bringing through the community stories that you reference and the live performances that have been mentioned in terms of a living archive. We feel passionately about that. We are considering the points that have been raised and thinking about the best and most audience-focused way of ensuring that we still deliver on those aspects.

You have talked a couple of times about using live recordings for podcasts. You also briefly mentioned the rights issue, and, if I understand it correctly, there could be some rights issues about how long new music can be played on podcasts for. Will that impact on your ability to grow the archive through having new musicians playing across Scotland in different venues?

That is a consideration for every programme, as you know, and there is an on-going conversation about how we do that.

I presume that you have had specific discussions about the amount of time for which you can play music? Are you allowed to put 30-second inserts into podcasts or can they be longer? How are those discussions going?

Rights are a complicated business, as I am sure that you know. It depends on the nature of the performance and other things, such as writing talent. We have lots of music podcasts on BBC Sounds on which we are able to play different music.

Classically, rights restrictions such as those that you are citing are for non-UK audiences. Globally, you can sometimes secure rights, but sometimes you cannot. For UK audiences that are funded by the licence fee, however, the position is generally different.

There is therefore the question of where the audience is based, especially if your plan is to grow international audiences. If you have the contrast between 30-second inserts for the international audience and what people can listen to locally, I feel that that is a bit of a challenge.

First and foremost, we are here for UK licence fee payers. We want to get it right for our audience and, in this particular situation, for our audience in Scotland in order to ensure that we give them value. However, rights are a consideration when we think about what we do internationally.

The BBC SSO’s output is mainly commissioned by Radio 3. The funding comes out of BBC Scotland’s budget, so are you working with Radio 3 to commission a different type of output? How will that relationship to work?

We had a situation in which the SSO did not appear very frequently on Radio Scotland, yet we spend more than £5 million on that fantastic orchestra. It is about taking fantastic, recorded concerts that the orchestra plays weekly and building a programme for Radio Scotland to ensure that we still have classical music on our airwaves in the same slot. That is the way in which we will work. We will absolutely work collaboratively with Radio 3 on that.

Even from a live radio point of view, it is an advantage that we will now have concerts every week. The Scottish Symphony Orchestra will feature very prominently, in a way in which we have not been able to do with it before. Our new classical offer on Radio Scotland will be entirely focused on Scottish orchestras.

My final question—.

[Inaudible.]

My apologies.

We are running out of time—sorry. We are facing the usual Thursday morning challenges. We move to Ms Boyack.

It was really useful to get the update that you sent us on 16 January, which kicks off by talking about the BBC’s income declining in real terms by 30 per cent before the 2022 licence fee freeze. I get the pressure that is on you, and we have heard the head of Creative Scotland describe the situation as a “perfect storm” for arts and culture. Another key quote, which I took away from Tuesday night’s cross-party group meeting, is that “you cannot eat art”. It is about careers for artists and how to slot that into where it might fit in BBC Scotland. Please try to explain it to us, because four of the five key BBC charter principles totally fit with that when it comes to live music such as pipe music, jazz and classical. Performers mentioned to us last week that live performances are a massive loss.

You have talked about podcasts and the reduced use of live radio. Is there not a way in which you can use live broadcasts by putting them in podcasts, on live radio and on BBC Sounds? Where is the financial cut-across? Does it not make sense to reuse that content at all points? Please explain the cutting of programming to us in financial terms.

11:00  

We welcome the opportunity to explain that those musical genres and wider arts and culture in Scotland remain at the heart of our schedules and our offer.

We have explained why we need to do some things in slightly different ways. There are three contexts, including quite positive ones. One negative one is the financial context. To do something new, we have to make difficult decisions about what we currently do in some places. That is part of a wider piece of work that we are doing on changing how we spend our content budget.

The second context is that audiences are changing. If we remain as we are, we will not be providing services—including for jazz, pipe and classical music—in the ways in which audiences consume and increasingly want to consume them.

The third—and positive—context is that, since some of our weekly radio programmes were set up decades ago, we have started to provide a range of other services through which we can reach and engage Scottish audiences. As I mentioned, there is the BBC Scotland channel, BBC Alba, BBC iPlayer and BBC Sounds. As Ms Boyack said, it is about how to ensure that the same content is available by using all those services together, and we remain committed to live recording and our role in supporting practitioners, as well as being focused on the audiences for those programmes. Louise Thornton’s role in BBC Scotland is to have all the services from radio, TV, online and social together and to achieve integration.

Difficult as the changes are, we think that audiences will benefit overall and will find content, including jazz content and a wider range of services; in addition, there is potential for a larger audience. Our role in helping to support and develop the Scottish creative industry—music, arts and culture—is absolutely central to what we do.

Where is the disconnect, then? We received really strong representations from witnesses at last week’s committee meeting, which was backed up by the huge number of people who wrote in and by the campaigns that are being run. People are very worried about the loss of access to live performances.

It is obvious that, when people hear, “This is cut; that is cut”, they think that there is no more classical music or piping or jazz music on Scottish services or wider BBC services. I hope that we have been able to explain that that is not the case. Live performance and live music are, and continue to be, central to what we do. We are talking about reaching audiences in ways in which, increasingly, they want to engage our services.

Part of the strategy is about not spreading ourselves too thinly and about leaning into bigger brands in parts of the schedule and across the platforms—not just in radio—where we get a bigger, broader audience and can get more exposure. We understand the passion and the specialist music lens that is brought by the people to whom you referred. We hope that you understand that our passion for arts and culture and the volume that we continue to deliver through BBC Scotland remain.

Last week, as I am sure you heard, Tommy Smith, the distinguished jazz musician, pointed out that a number of European countries, some of which are similarly sized to Scotland, have a radio channel that plays jazz, one that plays traditional music and one that plays classical music. Those are public service broadcasters. Why are we in Scotland still arguing about a couple of hours here and there?

We are commissioning across a broad range of genres and looking at the reality of our financial position. The director general has set a strategy of value for all, which means that we are pivoting to digital and investing in high-impact content. That is part of the strategy that we are enacting in Scotland. We are trying to make decisions in the smartest, most effective way possible, and those are part of a raft of changes.

We have really successful arts and culture output on BBC Radio Scotland. We have a brilliant show in the middle of our schedule. It is right that genres such as jazz and stories from talent across Scotland should be celebrated more in that programme. We are launching a culture podcast, which, I hope, will be brilliant and really successful. I hope that we will all listen to it and discover new forms of music and talent that we had not previously heard about.

We are looking at the reality of our financial position and trying to make the smartest decisions for the audience in Scotland.

I have experience of working in the European Broadcasting Union, and you are right: there are different approaches to public service broadcasting. The approach of some European countries is to have a whole number of services that are aimed at very specific things. The approach of the BBC and other broadcasters that we are familiar with is often one in which we have that content but put it in a bigger, all-encompassing service. The evidence is that that can help those practitioners, and that content, to break out of a niche. That is the overarching strategy that we are pursuing. A weekly programme can do a lot, but we think that integrating a whole range of things into bigger brands—that is, bigger shows and services—is a way to serve audiences better.

I will roll my other two questions into one. You will have to translate “leaning into bigger brands” for me as I do not know what that means. Who are the bigger brands in piping? Does “leaning into bigger brands” mean leaning out of diversity?

My second question is on the back of last week’s evidence. Finlay MacDonald, from a piping point of view, and Tommy Smith, from a jazz point of view, asked whether the new model that you are describing for BBC Radio Scotland involves more of a DJ model for programmes. In other words, does it involve fewer live performances and less engagement with experts?

First of all, apologies for BBC jargon. “Leaning into bigger brands” means looking at where we have significant impact with the audience. We have a bigger audience for the afternoon show, so it should be doing more for us. “The Quay Sessions” is an established programme brand and title. I would like to do more with that to support the genres.

On your question about DJs, we had two teams on BBC Radio Scotland making two separate programmes on piping. We will have one team making one programme, but we want to keep the live performance aspect of piping. We have taken that on board; we know how important that is. Our podcast will give us a bigger moment of celebration around key moments in the calendar, such as the world championships. That is where that will continue to happen.

I want to ask you about “Pipeline”, given the particular connection that the programme has to the Highlands and Islands, which I represent. The petition to save it has more than 10,000 signatures now. Last week, we heard about its importance locally. I know about that from first-hand experience, and I am sure that other members of the committee do, too. It provides a real local connection and knowledge about upcoming new musicians. I cannot stress enough the importance of that. For example, someone might hear a young local piper from their village or locality playing something, or someone in Spean Bridge will be heard in Stornoway. That is of immense importance. I cannot overstate its importance. What is your response to that?

As Louise touched on, at the moment, we have two separate teams making piping programmes; one in English and one in Gaelic. Our proposal is that we will have a common team—the BBC Radio nan Gàidheal programme is made from Inverness—to supply BBC Radio Scotland and BBC Radio nan Gàidheal. In addition, the podcast will have live performance music in it, which can then be played out—this speaks to Ms Boyack’s point—in the piping programmes. They will remain rooted in the communities, and piping will remain a very prominent feature of our linear schedules and our live radio schedules, as well as what we are pushing into now: on-demand services.

More broadly, I think that it was clear from last week’s evidence that there is an educational and development aspect to all those shows in terms of nurturing young musicians. We have touched a bit on that already. I think that it is true to say that there are many well-established musicians who credit their career development to those three stand-alone shows and that that has been integral to their success. Last week, it was made clear that the future of young musicians in Scotland will be bleak if those shows are lost. What reassurance can you give us that that will not happen?

I will take piping as an example. We will still be celebrating young musical talent. The young trad competition is absolutely fantastic and doing a brilliant job. We will still have piping on BBC Radio Scotland, there will still be a piping show on BBC Radio nan Gàidheal, and we will be making a podcast about the world championships and other moments. So, we will still have moments to celebrate talent; they will still exist.

In addition to that, we feel genuinely excited about the new competitions that we are launching. That will be a huge moment for young musical talent in Scotland. They will be broadcast on BBC Radio Scotland, we will be looking at how we feature them across BBC Scotland’s platforms more widely and they will be working in partnership with some of the fantastic organisations in Scotland. That should become a real moment throughout the year; we will have competitions where we can form relationships with young talent and where we can build an awareness of them as an opportunity for young talent.

I was reflecting on the answers that you have just given. With the other competitions, there are clear pathways to continue broadcasting. I am concerned that there is not the same with jazz. Will you comment on that? There is traditional music, travelling folk and other programmes, including the Gary Innes programme, that people can come on. What is the pathway for a young, up-and-coming jazz musician on BBC Radio Scotland?

To reiterate, “The Quay Sessions” is our live strand, and that will be an opportunity for musicians to perform and to play. Also, throughout our schedule, it is not just those particular programmes that celebrate our musical talent. We have fantastic documentaries and performance pieces on BBC Radio Scotland and BBC Scotland television where musicians come together. We had a fantastic moment for the 26th UN climate change conference of the parties—COP26—with “Changing Landscapes”, a TV programme in which we had a special composition and musicians performed the soundtrack.

There is a raft of opportunities throughout our schedules and our platforms, where musicians will come through, but “The Quay Sessions” will be an opportunity.

That is just within our own services. Obviously, we are very focused on our services and on Scottish audiences, but we can also play a part to help talent progress through other BBC services, including in that specific genre.

We can be here in Scotland to identify that talent, to work with partners such as the Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, and to offer them not just their first start but, as you say, that second phase and, in particular, opportunities beyond that.

As Mr Cameron said very eloquently, the connection that young musicians have with BBC Radio Scotland came across palpably last week. I keep hearing the word “moment”, whereas, previously, it was an hour every week. Sarah Boyack said that there was a “disconnect” between what BBC Radio Scotland, as our national radio station, is broadcasting and what the huge numbers of people who have signed petitions are looking for.

That has exhausted my colleagues’ questions. I have a final one. How should I phrase it? You used the term “value for all” when you were talking about the financial constraints and the competition for audience numbers with commercial radio and all those other areas. Traditional folk music is the genre that I follow most among the ones that have been mentioned. It seems that the launch of “Transatlantic Sessions” and some of the other work that the BBC has done in those areas has built up to an incredibly strong offering in Scotland that includes the Celtic Connections festival. The worry is about being without that.

11:15  

As a public sector broadcaster, you can have a role in nurturing talent that commercial stations cannot. With the launch of the new competitions, do you see jazz growing and the classical position being reinforced as a result? If I have understood correctly, you are running a Scottish classical competition as opposed to the standing BBC UK-wide one. I would just like a bit of reflection. We all love the culture from Scotland, but there is concern that that could be diminished. What would be a successful outcome of the strategy that you are planning?

You make a good point about how we build into bigger things. First, we have to be clear, given the financial constraints and the changing audience, about where we add value in Scotland. Traditional music is a fantastic example, and we should absolutely continue to invest in and build that. That is something uniquely Scottish that we can add to. In addition, we will continue to invest in and own the BBC’s relationship with new talent.

Part of our job in the commissioning team and the wider BBC Scotland is to connect with the industry and with our BBC network colleagues. We have active conversations about who is coming through our pipeline and who our network colleagues should be aware of. We will look to do that with the competitions. I appreciate that we are launching them in the financial year, so there is work to be done, but I imagine that those will build up over the years; that is certainly an ambition.

Mr Carson, do you want a final word?

My final thought is that, exactly as you said, part of our role as a public service broadcaster is in finding, identifying, nurturing and promoting Scottish talent. We are doubling down on that in the strategy. That is not without change—we accept that—but that is at the heart of it.

That concludes the session. Thank you very much for your attendance.

11:17 Meeting continued in private until 11:30.