Health and Sport Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, November 3, 2020

Official Report 570KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

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Health Protection (Coronavirus, Public Health Information for Passengers Travelling to Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/328)

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Health Protection (Coronavirus) (International Travel) (Scotland) Amendment (No 19) Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/330)

Agenda item 2 is consideration of two made affirmative instruments in relation to coronavirus and international travel, which have been laid under sections 94(1) and 94(2) of the Public Health etc (Scotland) Act 2008, and are on international travel. As in previous weeks, we are considering emergency regulations that the Scottish ministers have made under section 122 of the 2008 act. Section 122(7) says that such regulations

“cease to have effect at the expiry of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the regulations were made unless, before the expiry of that period, the regulations have been approved by a resolution of the Parliament.”

It is for the Health and Sport Committee to consider the regulations. We are looking at two sets of regulations today: the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Public Health Information for Passengers Travelling to Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2020 and the Health Protection (Coronavirus) (International Travel) (Scotland) Amendment (No 19) Regulations 2020. I am sure that our witnesses will be able to describe the purpose and effect of the regulations.

I welcome to the committee Humza Yousaf, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, who is accompanied by Scottish Government officials Rachel Sunderland, who is a deputy director in the population and migration division; Jamie MacDougall, who is a deputy director in the test and protect portfolio; and Laura Duffy, who is a team leader in the community surveillance division. Thank you for joining us.

We have two instruments before us, on which members will have the opportunity to ask questions. I invite any members who have questions to please indicate accordingly by typing an “R” in the chat function. If members agree, my intention is to consider both sets of regulations together when we come to the debate on them. Therefore, members are invited to ask questions on any aspect of either set of regulations before the debate. I will start off.

Cabinet secretary, will you bring us up to date on the community surveillance aspects of the regulations, in relation to people who quarantine, and how that is being reported?

Good morning, convener and committee members. I hope that everybody is keeping well and keeping safe.

You are right, convener. The committee, and you in particular, have pressed the Government to do what we can to ensure that Public Health Scotland has available to it the resource to enable it to contact up to 2,000 people who are required to self-isolate. The figures come out every Wednesday, as you probably know. In the week ending 27 October, 9,234 people were required to quarantine and 3,355 of them were contacted. I am pleased that we exceeded the 2,000 mark and the 20 per cent mark that we have referenced before. That is positive.

You also requested that I ensure that the number of positive cases that are coming from international travel be included in the data; that figure is now included. The latest figures show that roughly 6.8 per cent—almost 7 per cent—of positive cases are coming from international travel. That has decreased from the natural peak that we would see in the summer, but we are not complacent about that, particularly because there might well be an upsurge, come the winter break.

I hope that that answers your question, but if you want further detail, I am happy to provide it.

That would be helpful. I am sure that we will continue to keep the matter under review.

I have a quick question about people who are travelling to airports in England such as Newcastle, Manchester and even Heathrow, and then on to Scotland. How proactive has the UK Government been with the Scottish Government to continue to trace, or support the ability to assess, how many people are coming into Scotland through other airports so that we can look at continuing to monitor and manage the numbers appropriately?

On the general point about working with the UK Government on this particular issue, I would have to say that engagement has been constructive and positive and we are getting good access to information. There is a weekly call between the four nations that was chaired by Grant Shapps but has taken a slightly different format in terms of the Covid meetings chaired by Michael Gove. Nonetheless, there is still good engagement on the matter every week.

On the issues that Emma Harper raises, I make it absolutely clear that, regardless of which port of entry is used to come into the UK, if your destination is Scotland, your information will go from the passenger locator form to Public Health Scotland. If you have to quarantine, you will then become part of that cohort that might well be sampled that I referred to when I was answering the convener. You might then be sampled by Public Health Scotland. Regardless of whether you come from Manchester, Newcastle, or indeed any other port of entry in the UK, if your destination is Scotland, that is what will be on the passenger locator form and you will be required to self-isolate if you have to quarantine for 14 days. If that is in Scotland, that information will be passed on.

There were some teething problems in the very beginning, and I think that this committee went through some of them, but lately there have been no issues with information being passed on by the Border Force or the Home Office to Public Health Scotland.

I have given the justice secretary a hard time on the subject previously, so I am pleased that I will not have to do that today if the quarantine spot check rates are able to stay at that level. I thank the justice secretary for that information.

First, I am interested in compliance and the feedback from the sampling spot checks. What kind of feedback are we getting from that?

Secondly, there has previously been talk about testing at airports, partly to reduce the quarantine period from 14 days to 10 days, because there have been particular concerns that 14 days is a difficult length of time for people to comply with, and if we were able to reduce that we might get a greater degree of compliance. I want to be cautious and safe rather than just easing the situation. Could the justice secretary update us on both of those issues?

I thank Willie Rennie for his questions. They are both very important.

On compliance, the weekly Public Health Scotland report shows that the total number of people who have had to quarantine from 22 June to 25 October is just shy of 150,000.

Public Health Scotland will try to get in touch with a person several times. If that fails, it will then pass that contact on to Police Scotland. Police Scotland has published those figures. The total number of travel regulations referrals from Public Health Scotland to Police Scotland has been 241. By and large, Public Health Scotland is managing to get through to the majority of people that it needs to contact. Remember that 150,000 is the total number and not the number of people who have been contacted—it takes a dip sample of that total.

That suggests that Public Health Scotland is not having too much difficulty getting in touch with people. Bear it in mind that everyone gets an email as well as a potential follow-up call. I meet Police Scotland representatives every week and they have not raised with me any challenges in relation to compliance. In fact, there have only been four fixed-penalty notices related to breaches of the travel regulations. Those figures have been published. That gives me a degree of assurance.

I will raise the matter again with Police Scotland at our meeting, which I think is on Thursday, and if any particular issues of interest to the committee are raised, I will write to the convener.

Testing is an important issue. Grant Shapps, the UK Government Secretary of State for Transport, has created what is called a global travel task force, to consider the issue of airport testing. There was a call with the four nations on the issue. My officials have been involved in discussions since that initial call. I am somewhat disappointed that there has not been more ministerial interaction and engagement. I intend to raise the issue when we have our four-nations call tomorrow. I am told that the work has been progressing and that, this month, there should be feedback to ministers, including in the devolved Administrations, on the UK Government’s findings on airport testing.

The UK Government is proactively exploring the question that Willie Rennie asks, of whether the quarantine period could be shortened to seven or eight days and whether it should involve double testing. The challenge with double testing is that, if someone tests negative at the airport that could provide false assurance, which might affect behaviour patterns and could impact on compliance. If we do not do double testing, but test on day 7 or 8, we also need to consider how effective that is in comparison to 14 days’ quarantine. There has to be a be a balance between considering whether people are adhering to the 14-day quarantine system as we would like them to and whether they are more likely to comply with a seven-day restriction if that is what it were shortened to. That is a very long answer to Willie Rennie’s short question but I hope that I give him some reassurance that those questions are being asked. If I have a further update on that I will provide it to the committee.

Good morning. My question follows on from Willie Rennie’s question on issues around compliance. You have said that everyone who has to comply with the quarantine requirements gets an email. The concern is how we ensure that there is compliance after that email. I have heard concerns, anecdotally, from quite a few constituents about the transfer of people from somewhere that is not Covid-safe into Scotland, which could have a significant impact on our Covid rates. How confident are you that, having been contacted, those who have to self-isolate are actually doing so? How can we ensure that the maximum number of people comply?

I broadly share the concerns that Brian Whittle has heard from his constituents. I receive some such anecdotal information, too. That is why I look to Police Scotland. If people know that their neighbours have just returned from Spain and are not self-isolating, they should know that there is a fixed-penalty notice that could potentially be attached to that. Police Scotland tell us that some of the referrals relating to someone failing to self-isolate come from third parties; they do not all come from Public Health Scotland.

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On the broader point, I agree with Brian Whittle that there are concerns—it would be wrong for me to suggest otherwise—including on the part of Government, around compliance fatigue. That applies in relation to our regulations more generally, not just the regulations on quarantine. Therefore, to return to my answer to Willie Rennie, if there is a possibility of shortening the quarantine period, and it is effective for us to do so, it is definitely something that the Scottish Government is willing to look at.

As I have said, that work is being undertaken at a UK Government level. We have been told that we will get information from it this month. Once I get an update, I will ensure that the committee is likewise updated.

Thank you very much. As there are no further questions, we will move on to agenda items 3 and 4, which are the formal debates on the made affirmative instruments on which we have just taken evidence.

Are members content to have a single debate covering both the instruments? I see that members agree to that approach.

I remind members that they should not put questions to the cabinet secretary during the formal debate, and, of course, that officials may not speak in the debate. I invite the cabinet secretary to speak to and move motions S5M-23120 and S5M-23168, in his name.

As always, I am happy to waive my right to speak to the motions, as we have just had a question-and-answer session about them.

I move,

That the Health and Sport Committee recommends that The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Public Health Information for Passengers Travelling to Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/328) be approved

That the Health and Sport Committee recommends that The Health Protection (Coronavirus) (International Travel) (Scotland) Amendment (No. 19) Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/330) be approved.

Motions agreed to.

That concludes those two items of business, and we will report to Parliament in accordance with those decisions in support of the two motions.

I thank the cabinet secretary and his officials for their attendance.