Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Tuesday, October 3, 2023

Official Report 950KB pdf

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Topical Question Time

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MV Glen Sannox and 802 Ferries

To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on whether Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd should still accept into service the Glen Sannox and 802 ferries, in light of reports that they no longer meet the original basic design criteria. (S6T-01569)

Any further delay to the delivery of those lifeline vessels is extremely disappointing, and we have made that clear to the yard.

CMAL will accept delivery of the vessels only after it receives the required sign-off from the Maritime and Coastguard Agency and the class society. CMAL has been clear, along with CalMac Ferries and Transport Scotland, that all systems, including liquefied natural gas, will be commissioned before handover from Ferguson Marine Port Glasgow. The recent update from the chief executive officer of the yard set out the work and timelines on that basis.

The reduced passenger capacity noted in the update from the yard is expected to be formally accepted through appropriate contract amendments.

It is interesting that, of the seven original bids to build the ships, those from shipyards C and D were not accepted because they did not meet the requirement to carry 1,000 passengers and 127 cars or 16 big lorries. We know that the latest recommendation will result in capacity for 15 per cent fewer passengers. How many fewer cars and how many fewer lorries will there be?

My understanding—I will stand to be corrected if I am incorrect—is that there will be no impact on the vehicle aspects. On the passenger aspects, there are regular meetings to plot peak demand on the routes that the vessels will serve. There has been agreement on the compromises that have had to be made on the issues that the Maritime and Coastguard Agency raised. Addressing that is the direct responsibility of the contractor, which is Ferguson Marine.

Islanders have not accepted that there will be fewer passengers. We are in the current position because Ferguson Marine spoke to the MCA only in June this year about whether the boats would meet the specification that the MCA had set out, which is based on regulations that date from 2016. We have late ferries that are under capacity, over budget and not what islanders were promised. Are you happy with that as a minister?

I ask members to always speak through the chair.

As the Minister for Transport, my responsibility is to represent the interests of islanders, many of whom I have met over the summer. They want to have resilience in the fleet. They want not just two ferries but all six ferries. The six ferries, which will be completed by 2026, will provide resilience in the fleet.

What islanders do not want is speculative headlines that undermine the understanding that the vast majority of ferries in Scotland run to time, that far more passengers are being carried than ever before and that there are far more routes than ever before. Such headlines do not help when there are issues and when we are going into a dry-dock period, which will put more pressure on the system. I want to make sure that all six ferries are in place—then I will be happy, Mr Mountain.

Deng Xiaoping, who was paramount leader of China for more than a decade, said:

“It doesn’t matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.”

Does the minister agree that what is important to islanders at this point is not so much the ferry design as the fact that the vessels that are under construction in Port Glasgow can join the fleet and begin serving our island communities at the earliest possible date?

The member reflects his constituents’ interests, which have been relayed to me directly in the meetings that I have had with them. It is the contractor’s responsibility to meet the MCA’s requirements. That is an iterative process. I know that Mr Mountain has an interest in that as convener of the Net Zero, Energy and Transport Committee and that he has asked the Cabinet Secretary for Wellbeing Economy, Fair Work and Energy a number of questions. That letter is due to be responded to by Friday, and the response will be shared with the rest of Parliament.

The last time that the price of the ferries mushroomed, I asked whether any minister would lose their job. So far, no one has paid the price. There are more delays and higher costs today, so I ask again—will any minister pay the price for this fiasco?

Clearly, the difficulties that the yard has faced and that the contracts have faced have been absolutely laid bare for everyone to see. The recognition of the responsibilities of everyone concerned has been relayed. As the Minister for Transport, my role is to represent islanders’ interests in relation to tourism and freight and to make sure that we have in place responsive systems.

I have direct responsibility for CMAL and CalMac; I do not have direct responsibility for the Ferguson yard. However, in making sure that we have a yard that can face the future, we will be standing by its workforce. I distinctly remember certain people, not least from the member’s party, who called for that requirement at the time when those contracts were awarded.

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Police Scotland Estate (Rationalisation)

To ask the Scottish Government whether it will provide an update on the reported proposed rationalisation of the Police Scotland estate. (S6T-01579)

As members know, responsibility for the police estate is for the chief constable, under the Scottish Police Authority’s scrutiny. The Police Scotland estate strategy, which was published in 2019, outlined plans to dispose of outdated, underinvested and underused properties and to develop a modern, fit-for-purpose estate through consideration of a number of options, including co-location with partner organisations in modern, well-equipped accommodation.

Since the strategy’s publication, Police Scotland has relocated and co-located in a number of areas, and it continues to take forward projects to better suit its requirements and improve service delivery. That can provide better joined-up services for communities and ensure that we have efficient and effective public services for taxpayers’ money. Future proposals, like those previously, will be subject to consultation.

Elected members across the south of Scotland have received a letter from Police Scotland informing them of the severe financial strain that the Dumfries and Galloway division service is facing. Police Scotland has had to identify more than £50 million-worth of cuts this year alone. The letter also acknowledges that much of Police Scotland’s estate is not fit for purpose and that 30 police buildings will be disposed of. It has been reported that, in South Lanarkshire, all the police stations across Rutherglen and Hamilton West will be closed.

In the light of that, will the cabinet secretary provide an assurance that no new police stations will be closed to the public across Dumfries and Galloway?

It is important to emphasise to the member that this Government, despite United Kingdom Government austerity, has made year-on-year increases in investment into policing in this country. That is to the benefit of not only the member’s area but the nation as a whole.

The budget for Police Scotland has risen by 6.3 per cent this year, which is an additional £80 million. I have been assured by the current deputy chief constable and, indeed, by the previous chief constable that, despite the tough choices ahead, that will provide for safe and stable policing in the future.

On the question of the police estate, it is important to recognise that Police Scotland inherited decades of underinvestment by previous Administrations, bearing in mind that two thirds of the properties that it currently has predate 1980. There is a job of work to do in terms of investing in those estates to ensure that they not only meet the needs of the workforce but, most important, meet the needs of the communities that we all seek to serve.

It has been reported that the plans to close a list of Lanarkshire police stations were circulated to the Scottish Government earlier this year. Does the Scottish Government agree that it received a list of the Lanarkshire police stations that had been identified for closure prior to the purdah period?

Let me put on the record for the member and for those in the chamber that, although I am aware that a range of work is under way in relation to the 2019 Police Scotland estate strategy, I am not aware of any specific details, including for Lanarkshire or, indeed, for Dumfries. At no point has the Scottish Government requested any withholding of details, as perhaps the member has read in the press.

It is important to stress—I am sure that Mr Whitfield understands this—that those are operational decisions for the chief constable under the scrutiny of the Scottish Police Authority. I am quite sure that he would be the first to object if I overstepped my role and remit in regard to matters of policing in this country.

Two of the most senior figures in Police Scotland have used the phrase “slash and burn” to describe Scottish National Party cuts, the former chief constable has warned that Scotland’s policing model is “unsustainable” due to SNP cuts and the Scottish Police Federation has warned that “People may die” as a result of SNP cuts. Crime is rising and public confidence is falling, yet police stations are closing. When will SNP ministers fund our police officers and estate?

I am quite sure that I do not need to school Mr Findlay in the fact of the matter, which is that, since 2016-17, the Government has increased investment year on year. In fact, £11.6 billion has been invested since the creation of Police Scotland, we have more police officers per capita than there are in England and Wales, our police officers remain the highest paid in the UK and, according to the Scottish crime and justice survey, public confidence in policing remains high.

There is no doubt that there are challenges ahead as a result of many years of UK Government austerity, but, as always, this Government will rise to the challenge and serve the interests of policing in this country. It is imperative that we deal with the facts of the matter at hand. We have not cut budgets.

Last week, Deputy Chief Constable Fiona Taylor told the Scottish Police Authority that there are now more than 60 co-locations of police with partners and that that provides

“more sustainable, more modern, and safer workplaces for our people.”

Will the cabinet secretary outline some of the benefits of that approach, and will she confirm that the Scottish Government is still committed to having police at the heart of our communities?

I represent a constituency in which Police Scotland is co-located with the integration joint board, the local authority, the court system and a range of other partners. As the member intimated, Police Scotland has, to date, introduced 60 co-locations the length and breadth of Scotland. That has been done to respond to policing in the 21st century. It will improve visibility and will ensure that police continue to be at the heart of our communities and, first and foremost, that they serve the needs of those communities through joined-up, value-for-money public service.

What we have heard from the cabinet secretary this afternoon has been nothing but hand washing. She claims that she is not accountable for any of the things that are happening in Police Scotland, but she is accountable for the level of funding. David Kennedy, the general secretary of the Scottish Police Federation, said:

“any notion that policing will remain the same and will remain as safe as it has been is just not going to happen ... government needs to realise that.”

As Russell Findlay pointed out, he went on to say, “People may die.” Why on earth is the cabinet secretary not listening?

I always adhere to my responsibilities, day in, day out. I am very aware that I am accountable to the Government, to the people of Scotland and to the Parliament, and, along with the SPA, the Scottish police service and our local authorities, we all have accountability at each and every level.

I am quite entitled to point out the fact of the matter, which is that the Government has continued to increase investment in Police Scotland year on year—in fact, the increase in investment for Police Scotland exceeds the increase in the overall justice budget—so we have always, where possible, gone the extra mile.