Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, February 19, 2015

Official Report 904KB pdf

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Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Community Charge Debt (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with the amendment, members should have the bill and the marshalled list. The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes should there be a division on the amendment. The period of voting will be 30 seconds. Members who wish to speak in the debate on the amendment should press their request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible after I call the amendment.

After section 2

Amendment 1 is in the name of Gavin Brown.

The amendment reflects concerns raised by a number of councils in written and verbal evidence to the Finance Committee. Councils were worried that the bill and the publicity surrounding it could have a negative impact on the collection of other local government taxes. Seven councils that gave evidence to the committee, either in writing or verbally, made that point. They were a spread of councils in political and geographical terms. The point was raised by councils that were for the bill and councils that were against it.

In our view, if that worry turns out to be the case in practice, the burden to compensate should fall on those who created the situation. In this case, that is the party that introduced the bill—central Government as opposed to local government.

I was not allowed to go quite that far in terms of the admissibility of my amendment, so my amendment does what is in my view the next best thing: it creates a legal obligation on the Scottish Government to monitor the situation and publish the results in a transparent fashion.

Such a specific duty allows the Parliament and the wider public to judge for themselves the impact of the bill. If there is to be an impact on the collection of other local government revenues, it is most likely to happen sooner, amid the publicity around the act, rather than later, hence the amendment obliges the Scottish Government to monitor and publish the results only twice—once after six months and once after 12 months.

It is important to have this amendment in primary legislation, given the mixed messages coming from the Scottish Government. Following a meeting with the then local government minister, Derek Mackay, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities understood the position to be that if other revenues were hit, the Scottish Government and COSLA would be back round the negotiating table to sort the issue out. However, in evidence to the committee, the Deputy First Minister suggested that any hint of compensating councils was off the table.

In my view there is a risk arising from the bill and it has been highlighted by many councils. That risk ought to be monitored closely and the results of that monitoring should be transparent and should be published.

I move amendment 1.

Amendment 1 was lodged because of a desire to see the continued health of our local government revenues. Everyone in the chamber shares the belief that taxes arising should be taxes collected. The money that we are paying in council tax is going straight into funding essentials offered by our local councils, whether schools, care homes, roads or parks—the list goes on. Keeping those revenues buoyant is already a priority that is closely monitored.

Council tax collection rates today stand at 97 per cent. Placing an additional burden on local authorities to provide the specified information to the timescales that Gavin Brown proposes would be unnecessary and unhelpful. Information on community charge payments is already included in the returns that local authorities make to the Government on tax collection. The council tax collection statistics for 2013-14 were published by the Scottish Government on Tuesday 17 June 2014, which was less than three months after the end of the financial year.

The Scottish Government will undertake to report the final community charge collection data to the Finance Committee at the same time as the council tax collection statistics for 2014-15 are published. I expect that to be before the summer recess. I also expect—should the bill be passed—that the data will show that the amount of community charge that was collected continued to decline up to the date on which it was extinguished. Further council tax collection statistics will continue to be published as routine.

For those reasons, I ask Gavin Brown not to press the amendment.

Unusually, I call Jackie Baillie to speak to amendment 1. I will revert to the minister at the end. I will call Cameron Buchanan to speak after Jackie Baillie.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I understood that there was an open debate on the amendment, which is why I pressed my button to speak.

I have sympathy with the substance of what Gavin Brown said. We, too, want to ensure that there are no unintended consequences or impacts on the collection of council tax. However, I believe that we already monitor and publish collection rates, so we do not need to put what is proposed in legislation. I am sure that local authorities will be extremely vocal in ensuring that attention is drawn to any reduction in the collection of rates despite their considerable efforts to recover debt, and I suspect that the Parliament’s Local Government and Regeneration Committee will be likewise.

For those reasons, we will not support the amendment, although we have sympathy with its intentions.

I call Cameron Buchanan.

I would not usually expect to speak at stage 3 of a bill so soon after having spoken at stage 1. However, the Government seems to have little desire to listen to most people’s views on removing the liability to pay the community charge. I have said before that there are many worrying questions, and I am compelled to ask them again.

How is the bill fair to the people who paid the charge? Will it stand up to the legal challenge from those who would, understandably, seek compensation? Will the compensation that is offered to local authorities be reviewed to match the true cost of the policy? What will be the total effect of the worrying precedent that the bill sets on tax avoidance? Will its impact be monitored?

Mr Buchanan, are you speaking to the amendment or making your speech, which we would expect you to do in the open debate?

I am speaking because you asked me to speak.

Your speech should come later.

I will now revert to the minister. Is there anything further that you wish to say before I ask Mr Brown to wind up on the amendment?

I am content.

I am a little disappointed, although not hugely surprised, by the Government’s response. The minister said that the burden would be “unhelpful”. I suspect that it would be a little unhelpful for the Scottish Government, because it might shine a light on what the impact of the bill has been, but I am not sure that the burden would be quite such a big burden on, or so unhelpful to local authorities. What would be more unhelpful to them would be the collection rates dropping as a consequence of the bill that we have passed and their having no recourse to the Scottish Government and there being no obligation on the Scottish Government to do anything about that.

Given the level of sophistication of local councils and their financial officers, they would be in a position to give us an indication in early course of how the collection rates had changed, if they had. They may not change, but seven councils suggested that they might. We would be in a better position if we knew about that sooner, rather than waiting until several months after the end of the financial year and then trying to drive backwards.

Jackie Baillie is right. I am sure that local government will be vocal if the collection rates drop, but the amendment’s purpose is to ensure that the Government has an obligation to monitor and publish. If that existed, the Government would be more likely to listen to councils and would be more likely to be forced politically to act as opposed to being in a position in which to ignore councils more easily.

For that reason, I press amendment 1.

The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

There will be a division. There will therefore be a five-minute suspension, after which there will be a 30-second division.

15:55 Meeting suspended.  

16:00 On resuming—  

We will proceed with the division on amendment 1.

For

Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baxter, Jayne (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Rowley, Alex (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (Ind)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)

Abstentions

Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)

The result of the division is: For 13, Against 90, Abstentions 2.

Amendment 1 disagreed to.

That ends consideration of amendments.