Social Justice and Social Security Committee

Meeting date: Thursday, March 31, 2022

Official Report 594KB pdf

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Case Transfer

The next item of business is an evidence session on case transfer, with the Minister for Social Security and Local Government. The session will allow members to discuss arrangements for case transfer, from DWP to Social Security Scotland, of people who are on disability benefits. The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials. Kate Thomson-McDermott, who is unit head of carer benefits and case transfer policy, joins us in the committee room. David Hilber is the team leader in case transfer policy, Kayleigh Blair is a solicitor and Jane Goodier is senior lead for disability and carers benefits at Social Security Scotland, and they join us online.

I welcome you all to the meeting and invite the minister to make a short opening statement.

Thank you for inviting me to give evidence on case transfer of devolved disability and carer benefits.

I am grateful for the work of the committee to date in considering the case transfer provisions for clients whose awards are moving from disability living allowance to child disability payment and from personal independence payment to adult disability payment.

The Scottish Commission on Social Security has recently reported on draft regulations to ensure that Scottish adults who are in receipt of disability living allowance can also move on to adult disability payment in cases where they would otherwise be required by the DWP to apply for the personal independence payment. We hope to lay the final regulations for the committee’s consideration in May.

As I have set out to the committee before, case transfer is not a simple administrative process; it is a complex transfer of data, forms and evidence, as well as of legal entitlement. We are transferring then refining data from a variety of legacy systems that are used by the Department for Work and Pensions, some of which are decades old, on to our new single system that will be used to administer all forms of Scottish assistance. We are transferring between two different Government agencies that have their own policies and procedures, and between two different regulatory schemes that were established by two different Parliaments.

We have worked with the experience panels and other key stakeholders to design a process that has dignity and respect at its heart, as we undertake the case transfer process. It was through that intensive stakeholder engagement that we developed our five case transfer principles. The first is that no one will be required to apply for their Scottish assistance as part of the transfer process. Secondly, clients will continue to receive the right payment at the right time. Thirdly, after adult disability payment launches nationally, people’s awards will, wherever possible, be transferred before they would be subject to a DWP face-to-face assessment. Fourthly, we will complete the transfer process as soon as possible, while ensuring that it remains safe and secure. Fifthly, we will clearly communicate with our clients. That is important.

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Around 700,000 people will have their disability and carer benefits transferred from the Department for Work and Pensions to Social Security Scotland in line with those principles. Our top priority is to ensure safe and secure transfer for all, and we will endeavour to complete the transfer in 2025. If, during the process, we find that it is possible to accelerate the rate of case transfer for any of the benefits while still meeting the requirement that it is safe and secure, we will do so.

This is a joint programme of work with the Department for Work and Pensions. We rely on its support to match our timetable and we rely on it to provide us with the right data and with information in the right format at the right time, in line with processes that we have jointly developed. We are grateful for its collaboration thus far.

As you are aware, the transfer from disability living allowance for children to child disability payment started in October 2021. A significant number of children and young people are now receiving child disability payment because of transfer of their award. Personal independence payment awards are due to start transferring to adult disability payment this summer.

We continue to agree processes with DWP benefit by benefit to ensure that no one experiences a disruption in their award. It is vital that people continue to receive their awards on time and, of course, to receive the right amount. We will continue to keep the committee updated as that work progresses.

I am proud of what we have all been able to deliver to date despite the challenges that we have all faced as a result of the pandemic. We have done that on top of delivering 12 new Scottish benefits, including creating the Scottish child payment, delivering the two coronavirus carers allowance supplements, designing a new and inclusive application and decision-making process and making provision for indefinite awards for the recently launched adult disability payment.

A lot has been done and there is a lot to do ahead. I welcome the opportunity to assist the committee in its consideration of case transfer and look forward to questions from members.

Thank you very much, minister. Our first group of questions concerns the transfer from personal independence payment to adult disability payment.

Good morning to your team, minister. I suppose that, for the record, I should point out that I am at present on PIP and will, I hope, transfer to ADP at some point. I declare that as an interest.

I think that you said that you would lay the regulations in May. Did I hear that correctly?

That was about the regulations with regard to DLA for working-age adults.

When will detailed guidance on case transfer from PIP to ADP be published? Do you have a date for publishing it?

The guidance on transfer from personal independence payment to adult disability payment is available on our mygov.scot website. We intend to publish more detailed guidance in May and will make the committee aware when that happens.

I am on PIP at the moment. How much notice will be given to people of when they will be transferred to ADP? It is quite a long time. Is transfer being carried out geographically or alphabetically? How much notice will people be given that they are transferring from the DWP to the new agency?

I will bring Kate Thomson-McDermott in shortly, if there is any more to add on the guidance.

On the notice period, all DWP cases that have a Scottish postcode as part of the person’s record will be flagged for transfer on the DWP’s systems.

When the selection criteria that have been agreed with the DWP are met—for example, for personal independence payment to adult disability payment, where the person’s independence payment award is due to be reviewed—the individual’s case will be selected for transfer. Once selected for transfer, the DWP will send us the data, forms and evidence that we need to set up the person’s Scottish award. At that point, we will write to the person to explain that their case has been selected for transfer and we will outline when we expect the transfer to be completed.

In most cases, the transfer will be complete 13 to 17 weeks later, which means that the Scottish assistance will begin and the DWP-administered benefit will simultaneously end. That timing can be accelerated when the client meets the special rules for terminal illness. We can vary that timing in some cases, with the agreement of the DWP. We will write to the person again at the end of their case transfer process telling them what their Scottish award is, how much they will receive and when, and outlining their rights and obligations, just as we would had they made a successful application. That is in relation to those who will be selected for transfer because of their circumstances.

There is another process. I talked about one of the triggers for selecting a case being if the person’s PIP award was due to be reviewed by the DWP. We will prioritise the transfer of Scottish clients with personal independence payment awards when they would otherwise be subject to a DWP review that could require a face-to-face assessment—for example, when a client reports a relevant change of circumstances or, as I said, is scheduled to have their personal independence payment award reviewed or ended. That is what we call natural case transfer, and that is where we will start.

We then have the process of beginning to transfer clients who do not fit into one of those categories thereafter, and we call that managed case transfer. That will begin from spring 2023. Do you want to say more, Kate?

You have covered most of it well. We have some general information on the case transfer process for PIP to ADP and for working age disability living allowance on the mygov.scot website, and I am happy to forward links after the meeting to add to what we have already made available. We will progressively update that information with more detail, as we get closer to the case transfers happening.

Social Security Scotland run roadshows on adult disability payment. They are under way and include general information about case transfer, and we will do some specific ones on case transfer in due course. We will continue to produce guidance for stakeholders and other bodies and for those who will be supporting people through the transfer processes. Much nearer the time of launch, the decision-making guidance will also be published, which will be a helpful source of information for people.

The last thing to say is that we are developing and testing our notifications of intent to transfer, which is the letter that legally triggers the case transfer moves, as the minister said; we will make sure that we clearly set out the processes that will occur through that case transfer process and we will signpost people to where they can get further advice and help. We will make sure that that is clearly set out in those letters.

We live and breath this day in, day out, but there are lots of people out there who want that reassurance, so that is really helpful.

Could I seek clarification? You helpfully said that people who have long-term conditions will not have to go through the same assessment period for PIP as they do at the moment under the DWP. When people are transferred, if they are, say, two years away from a review, will they be told that that review will not need to take place? How will you make that decision about those who are already on PIP and are coming up for a review two or three years down the road? Will they be told at that point that the review will not take place or will that happen once everybody has been transferred?

I will bring in Kate Thomson-McDermott and/or David Hilber shortly.

With regard to indefinite awards and review more generally, the committee will know that Social Security Scotland reviews will be light touch and less frequent than is the case in the current DWP system. Once a client has been transferred to Social Security Scotland, after a period there will be a review of their case. At that point, if an indefinite award is appropriate, that will be considered.

After the outcome of that review has been completed, the client will, of course, be able to utilise all other aspects of the enhanced system that we are delivering; for example, they will be able to challenge a decision in the way that we have set out and they will have all the other support that the ADP will deliver that is not available in the DWP system.

Has Social Security Scotland set itself a timescale for how long that review will take? Although it will, hopefully, be light touch, there is still the possibility that a person’s benefit might be taken away, and it will obviously be an uncertain period.

Let us say that a person is transferred over on 1 January. How long will that review take from the day that a person is transferred over? Is there a target date for that?

I will bring in Kate Thomson-McDermott on that point.

I might bring in Jane Goodier on general timescales for conducting reviews at Social Security Scotland, which will, of course, apply across all new applications as well as case transfers.

We will review natural case transfers—those that are moving over because they have reported a relevant change of conditions or because they were due an award renewal or award end—once the transfer process is complete. We have committed to doing that as soon as is reasonably practicable, which is in the legislation. We are interpreting that as meaning that it should be done, at an absolute maximum, within a year of the notice of intent to transfer. However, we obviously hope that it will be done as soon as possible, and more quickly than that in the majority of circumstances.

For those who transfer from PIP to ADP, we hope that not too much more evidence gathering will be required. We are simply focusing on any changes in conditions, but there might be circumstances in which we need further evidence as part of that process.

For people who are coming through managed case transfer—where there has not been a natural case transfer trigger—we will, in the first instance, honour the review dates that are set for their PIP awards. We will set out clearly in the notice of determination that we will review their case. It will obviously be a light-touch Social Security Scotland review rather than a DWP-style review, but we will match that review date in the first instance, in order to give continuity and certainty. As the minister mentioned, if, at that review point, it is likely that an indefinite award would be appropriate, that would absolutely be considered—as it would be as part of the reviews for any of the natural case transfers.

Before I bring in Pam Duncan-Glancy, I have a question on the back of Jeremy Balfour’s questions.

A handful of people have contacted me in the past couple of weeks because they were expecting to be on a natural transfer pathway from PIP to ADP but are now all of a sudden being triggered with reviews from the DWP that they were not expecting. Although they had letters that said that they would not be reviewed until the end of 2022, there seems to be a flurry of people in that situation. Will those individuals now be subject to a managed transfer process, which will mean that it will be slightly longer before they get on to ADP? There seems to be a lot of confusion among people who are now subject to reviews that they were not expecting.

As you would expect, I cannot comment on individual cases. However, that is certainly not a trend that has been brought to our attention yet. You might wish to write to me on that point—either as a constituency MSP or as convener, as appropriate—so that we can consider engagement with the DWP on the matter, because we are certainly not aware of people having reviews that were not anticipated.

Of course, when our case transfer process is initiated, people who are subject to an upcoming DWP PIP review would be transferred naturally at the beginning of the process.

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I would be interested to hear more details on that matter. In addition, for those who are on working-age adult DLA, we have managed to secure a pause in their consideration for moving over to PIP so that they are brought into our system. We will probably come on to discuss individuals on DLA shortly, so I will say more about that then.

I am definitely happy to write to you on that, minister. It is reassuring that you have not noticed a trend in that regard. That is helpful.

In written evidence to the committee, the Scottish Association for Mental Health estimated

“that the delay by a year in ADP”

meant that about

“141,000 people in Scotland”

were going to

“remain on PIP or enter the PIP system who would otherwise have been eligible for ADP.”

It also estimated that, of those people,

“55,000 ... have a mental health problem with a large proportion”

having to go through face-to-face assessments for PIP, which will of course have caused them a great deal of distress.

SAMH went on to state that,

“To mitigate this”,

it was asking for

“the rapid transfer of people to ADP from PIP who successfully made a PIP claim during the delay period.”

Would the Government consider doing that?

I thank Pam Duncan-Glancy for highlighting the written evidence from SAMH; I recall the session at which SAMH gave oral evidence on that important aspect.

The member will appreciate that we have to be both pragmatic and responsible in how we undertake safe and secure transfer in the way that I have set out. There will be natural case transfer, and then there will be those who are selected for managed case transfer thereafter. Things will move as quickly as possible, but in a responsible way.

After we launch ADP nationally on 29 August, we will do all that we can to ensure that no one in Scotland will undergo a PIP reassessment for disability benefits wherever possible, because natural case transfer will take place in that regard. If someone who is in receipt of PIP reports a change in their condition after ADP is launched nationally, we will transfer the client’s award to Social Security Scotland, so that they do not undergo an assessment with the DWP. Similarly, no Scottish clients will be referred for a review of their PIP award or will apply for an advanced personal independence payment award after ADP launches nationally, as we will prioritise the transfer of those cases before those points are reached.

For those reasons, prioritising for case transfer the specific group of clients that the member highlights would not reduce the number of DWP medical assessments to which they would be subject. I understand the frustration that clients may feel because they have had to claim a DWP benefit where they could have applied for a Scottish benefit if those benefits had been launched earlier. I appreciate that, and it goes to the heart of Pam Duncan-Glancy’s question. However, I do not think that it would be fair or appropriate to prioritise transferring the benefits of clients who have recently applied for DWP benefits over those who have been in the DWP system for many years. There is a balance to consider there with regard to fairness.

I understand and share the desire to move clients’ benefits to our new system as quickly as possible, and our top priority is to ensure that those benefits are transferred safely and securely. As I have said, if, during the process of case transfer, we find that it is possible to accelerate the rate of transfer while still meeting the requirement for it to be safe and secure, we will absolutely do that.

We move to questions from Marie McNair, who joins us remotely.

Minister, with regard to preparing for the PIP to ADP transfer, have any lessons been learned from the initial transfer from disability living allowance to the child disability payment that you would like to highlight?

We have learned a lot of important things—I do not want to say “lessons”, because we have not made mistakes, but the process of undertaking the transfer from DLA for children to CDP has helped us to refine our systems and has given us an insight into the case transfer process ahead of the transfer to ADP, which is helpful.

As I set out in my opening statement, the magnitude of the task at hand in the case transfer process, in both volume and complexity, and in dealing with different systems and legal processes, is significant. I think that it was both wise and sensible for us to undertake case transfer in the phased, systematic and scheduled way in which we are doing so. As a result of the way in which we have approached case transfer in general, we are in a stronger position as we undertake transfer to ADP, and thereafter to carers allowance.

Given that the highest rate of the mobility component will also be awarded in ADP terminal illness claims, will those claims be a priority for transfer in the same way as they were for CDP?

I will bring in Kate Thomson-McDermott on that shortly, because it is an important point. Since we launched ADP on 21 March, we have seen the welcome that there has been from people who are in the most difficult of circumstances for the changes that we are making around terminal illness. In short, the answer to Marie McNair’s question is yes, but I will let Kate provide a bit more detail on that.

For all the case transfer processes, we will build in a priority transfer route for those who meet the Scottish rules for terminal illness. In circumstances where they are not already on the highest mobility and care component, we will move them across to ensure that they gain access to the highest award. If they report a relevant change of circumstances that means that they would, for the first time, meet the Scottish rules for terminal illness, we will transfer them across in an expedited process. We should be able to get them from the DWP systems on to our systems and on to the payment within four weeks, because we recognise the need to ensure that that happens quickly in such circumstances.

Thank you for that clarification. I have no further questions, convener.

We move to questions from Emma Roddick, who joins us in the room, followed by Natalie Don, who will join us remotely.

Minister, it is possible that, after the case transfer, people who are currently on DLA might not end up staying on ADP. Do you think that that situation will be uncommon? Where it happens, will the data be monitored so that we can get a full picture of why it has happened and consider whether any changes to support or criteria should be made in the future?

I will focus on the movement from DLA to ADP. What Emma Roddick mentions is an important point of consideration for a number of reasons, in relation to both our system and people’s historical and recent experiences in the UK Government system.

With regard to those who are moving from DLA to ADP, I will set the context a little. We are in the process of finalising a clear communications plan to explain the process to people. It is important that we set out the support that will be available to help people through the transfer and review process as they move from DLA to ADP.

Although Social Security Scotland cannot advise clients on their individual circumstances, we will clearly explain in our wider communications the differences between DLA and ADP, and signpost people to third sector organisations for independent advice and support. We are also committing £20 million to create our independent advocacy service to support people through the process. In addition, our local delivery colleagues in all 32 local authorities will be available to provide face-to-face support for anyone who requires it, in their own area, at any stage of the process. That context is important.

On whether ADP awards will be reviewed in the first year following case transfer, I will set out some of the detail, because it is quite important. For context again, the DWP publishes information on the outcomes for people who have already transferred from DLA to PIP. Up to the end of October 2021, approximately 150,000 DLA to PIP assessments were completed by the DWP in Scotland. Of those, before reconsiderations and appeals—that is an important point to note—43 per cent resulted in an increased award; 14 per cent in an unchanged award; 21 per cent in a decreased award; and 22 per cent in no award. I appreciate that Emma Roddick is referring to those who were part of the 21 per cent or the 22 per cent.

The number of people who receive an ADP award that is lower than their DLA award is uncertain, and I will set out why. We would expect the numbers of those receiving a decreased or no award to be lower when clients move from DLA to ADP than when people are moving from DLA to PIP. That is for two important reasons. First, the statistics to which I have referred with regard to the DWP do not factor in the outcomes of appeals for PIP. We know that 70 per cent of appeals in Great Britain have led to a decision in favour of the client. We will seek to get our decisions right first time—we are very committed to that, and I have articulated that in what I have set out to the committee regarding ADP and what we are doing.

Secondly, our assessment processes are based on dignity, fairness and respect, and we strongly believe that they will lead to fairer outcomes. For example, the Scottish Fiscal Commission, in preparing its forecast for ADP, has included assumptions for the outcome of award reviews as a result of changes being introduced with ADP. In its “Scotland’s Economic and Fiscal Forecasts” report for August 2021, the SFC stated:

“Overall, we assume these changes will decrease the number of people who lose their award; we estimate that the disallowance rate at award review will decrease from 19.5 per cent to 5.4 per cent.”

That is indicative of the fact that, because of the changes that we are making to the experience for clients, and because we are committed to our principles of dignity, fairness and respect, we anticipate—although we cannot speak to individual circumstances and cases—that we will get our decisions right first time and that the support will follow through.

I know that that was a long answer, but I hope that it was helpful.

Yes, that was helpful—thank you.

10:00  

Thank you, minister; that was very helpful.

I appreciate the assurances that the minister has given in this regard, but do we think that people will be hesitant about coming forward to request a transfer because they fear that they might lose out? As has also been touched on this morning, will any information campaign take account of that? On top of that, does the minister believe that the more person-centred and dignified process that Social Security Scotland—in contrast to the DWP—is following will be useful in encouraging people to come forward for that transfer?

There are aspects of that question that are very important, but I emphasise that nobody needs to come forward for transfer. We will get in touch with people and manage their case transfer process. Social Security Scotland will be in touch with all those who are on a current DWP benefit, and we will seamlessly transfer their case. However, we encourage people who are not in receipt of a disability payment to apply to the agency.

I talked about communications in answer to Emma Roddick’s question. As a point of clarity, Natalie Don’s question is relevant to the fact that those who are on working age disability living allowance are an exception to the rule in relation to case transfer, because they can choose to apply.

Following on from my answer to Emma Roddick, with regard to the point about support through the process of case transfer and review, it is important to emphasise that, for individuals who get a decreased or nil award and choose to seek a redetermination or appeal, there will be short-term assistance to avoid financial hardship during the redetermination and appeals process. We are also exploring other ways of providing support to clients who might face a reduced or nil award after a review. For example, we are discussing potential support for those with an electric vehicle who might have lost the enhanced mobility award after review. It is important to note that we are continuing to consider what assistance we can provide. A number of aspects in our system will be there to support people through any review process. I will bring Kate Thomson-McDermott in with regard to the exception for those who are on working age DLA, who can choose to seek case transfer.

The minister has covered the majority of the points. As he mentioned, the general rule is that the clients will not choose to transfer; we will select them through the natural managed case transfer process that we have set out. That is to ensure that there are no breaks in payments and that we control the volumes, so that the processes are safe and secure. We are able to do that because, in the first instance, the main entitlement components for the awards that we are transferring from and to are the same, so we can do a like-for-like transfer in most circumstances, which means that clients will not necessarily be better off if they move earlier. In the very few circumstances in which that would be the case, we have included backdating provisions to make sure that clients do not lose out by moving later. For that reason, clients will not be able to choose when they transfer. They will be selected for transfer and we will inform them when that is happening.

The one exception to that is for those clients who are on working age disability living allowance. That is because the components of disability living allowance and adult disability payment are different. As we heard from the statistics that the minister read out earlier, some clients will be better off being assessed against the components of adult disability payment than they are for disability living allowance, so we are going to make sure that there is provision to allow those clients to select to transfer.

We will make sure that clear communications are planned and given out to explain the process and what it will mean for those who are transferring over. The communications will clearly set out the support that will be available to people to help them transfer through the process, as well as the differences between disability living allowance and adult disability payment, to help make sure that people make informed and supported decisions about whether they would be better off applying for ADP or staying on DLA until they are transferred at a later date.

I have already said something about it, but I will build on my answer to Natalie Don’s question about how Social Security Scotland’s person-centred approach to the review will be different from the DWP’s reassessment of clients from DLA to PIP. I have talked about the fact that there will be a local delivery service, an independent advocacy service and short-term assistance to support people through any review or redetermination.

However, it is important to emphasise a point that we have put a lot of focus on, because it is so significant. In launching ADP, we have replaced the adversarial approach of the DWP by removing default face-to-face assessments and degrading functional examinations. We will trust what people tell us, so we are coming to this from a position of trust, which is important. I have talked before about the onus being on Social Security Scotland to collect information on people’s behalf, rather than them having to get it themselves. When making a decision, we will need to collect only one piece of formal supporting information, which is very different from the current process of multiple bits of formal information being required for different parts of the person’s claim. With regard to the general approach and the effect that it will have on individuals through the process, it is important for all of us to emphasise that we are starting from a position of trust, so that people who want to make applications feel encouraged to do so, and to make sure that word gets out across Scotland about the different approach that we are taking.

Thank you, minister. As we have been talking, you have answered a number of other questions that members had, so I have been getting a flurry of messages on my phone to say that they have no further questions. Therefore, that brings us to the end of this evidence session. I thank you and your officials for coming this morning and giving evidence.

I will suspend the meeting briefly to allow for a changeover of witnesses.

10:08 Meeting suspended.  

10:13 On resuming—