Justice and Home Affairs Committee,

Meeting date: Monday, May 22, 2000

Official Report 243KB pdf

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Draft Census (Scotland) Amendment Order 2000/Census (Scotland) Regulations

I ask the minister to give us his—as they always say—short opening statement. After that, we will hear what people have to say about it.

In February, the Parliament approved the draft census order that set out the Executive's proposals for the date of the next census—29 April 2001—the topics on which questions would be asked and the persons by whom and with respect to whom returns are to be made.

The census order could not include religion as a topic since the primary legislation, the Census Act 1920, did not provide for that. However, during the debate in February, the Deputy First Minister said that, having listened carefully to the strong views expressed, in particular by the Equal Opportunities Committee, the Executive had decided that a voluntary question on religion should be included in the census in Scotland. He also indicated that he would consult on the form of the religion question or questions and on the form of the ethnic group question.

Before we could introduce an amendment to the census order to enable a question on religion to be asked in the census, we first had to amend the primary legislation. The Census (Amendment) (Scotland) Act 2000, which received royal assent on 10 April, adds religion as a matter on which particulars might be required in a census and, to ensure that those who do not answer questions on religion will not be liable to a penalty, amends the section on penalties for failing to comply with census obligations.

That opens the way for the draft census amendment order before us today, the main purpose of which is to enable two voluntary questions on religion and a revised ethnic group question to be asked in Scotland's census next year.

The proposed questions on religion and ethnicity are set out at the back of the Executive note that accompanies the draft amendment order. The proposals have been drawn up following thorough and extensive consultation with users, including the Equal Opportunities Committee, the Commission for Racial Equality, religious bodies, key users in Government and local government, health authorities and others who had previously expressed an interest. Copies of the responses to the consultation have been placed in the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Taking account of the views that were expressed and the need to avoid the census form becoming too long, the Executive proposes two voluntary questions on religion. The first will provide information on religious adherence; the second will provide information on religious upbringing. Both questions will provide information on broad subdivisions of Christianity and of non-Christian groups—most notably those from the Indian sub-continent. The questions will provide important benchmarking information in connection with the Executive's social inclusion policies, which are designed to provide equality of opportunity for every person in Scotland. In England and Wales, the proposal has been a single question: "What is your religion?" The response categories would not feature a split of Christianity.

I shall now address the revised ethnic group question. The Executive proposes to subdivide the white category into Scottish, other British, Irish and any other white background. Another revision is the positioning of the Chinese category as a subsection of the Asian group. The extension of the ethnic group question to include an Irish category with a separate question on country of birth will provide a more accurate and reliable basis for identifying and dealing with possible disadvantage faced by members of the Irish community. The amendment order will also ensure that the provision that is made for particulars to be collected with respect to communal establishments reflects the intended questions that will ultimately be included in the 2001 census.

The census order provided for information to be collected on type of establishment, but it was not clear whether that wording allowed for the collection of information about the type of residents and management or the registration status of the establishment, as was intended. Consequently, those questions were not included in the Census (Scotland) Regulations 2000. The amendment order makes the necessary provision for those intended questions. The detail of the questions on communal establishments—as on religion and ethnic group—will, in due course, be included in the census amendment regulations.

I shall now say a few words about procedural matters, which are complex because of the terms of the primary legislation, the Census Act 1920. As the Executive note makes clear, only those parts that are set out in italics in the draft amendment order are subject to affirmative resolution procedures and can be modified by the Parliament and approved in that modified form. In particular, those provisions are made to ensure that the Executive's intended questions on communal establishments can be asked. All other parts of the draft order are subject to negative procedure and cannot be modified.

This draft amendment order is the penultimate step in fulfilling the Executive's undertaking to include a voluntary question on religion in the next census. The final step will be the introduction to the Parliament of amendment regulations, when the amendment order is made. Consultation on the content of the census began well before this Parliament came into being. For any future census, we would be able to involve the Parliament at a much earlier stage, so avoiding the difficulties that have led to multiple debates on the 2001 census. I stress that the Executive has shown willingness to listen to the arguments that have been put forward by the Parliament. With the full co-operation of the Parliament, the necessary amendment to primary legislation has been passed. Today, I am asking for your co-operation to ensure that the necessary subordinate legislation is in place in good time for Scotland's census to proceed.

I move,

That the Justice and Home Affairs Committee recommends that the draft Census (Scotland) Amendment Order 2000, to the extent that it relates to the particulars printed in italics in article 2(3), be approved.

I ask members to indicate if they want to speak.

The proposed new paragraph 10 says:

"As regards ethnic group, whether—

(a) White (and whether Scottish, other British".

Was that always the case? I am curious to know whether that is a change. Can someone now say that they are Scottish, rather than British?

I presume so.

That is fine. That suits me.

I inform Michael Matheson, who has just arrived, that the minister has just addressed the draft Census (Scotland) Amendment Order 2000. I am inviting members to speak. That is just to let you know where we have got to.

I apologise for being late. I was visiting the Polmont young offenders institution.

You are allowed to ask questions blind. Does anyone have any questions?

Members indicated disagreement.

I sense a distinct lack of interest in this.

I have received a letter from Lewis Macdonald, on behalf of a constituent who is the vice chair of Grampian Racial Equality Council. Have you seen that letter?

I have had some indication of what is in it.

For the record, the complaint—I use that word in the loosest sense—is that the views of people of African origin in Scotland have not been properly taken into account. They regard white and black as bad categories and think that they are not helpful, particularly in describing someone from a mixed race background. They wanted to speak to this committee but were told that our agenda did not allow that. I promised at least to raise their concerns with you.

These people feel that categories that are based on colour are wrong in principle and seem to have a problem with not having been consulted properly. I do not know whether there is any truth to that, but Lewis Macdonald is very concerned about his constituent and I promised to raise the matter.

I am aware of the concerns that have been raised. I understand that various ethnic minority groupings that are referred to in the proposed census form have been consulted equally. No distinction has been made between ethnic groupings in attempting to consult properly. We have consulted through the Commission for Racial Equality and other umbrella organisations. Anybody who made themselves known to us at any stage, or who expressed a request to be consulted, was included thereafter in the consultation and any discussions that took place.

I would be glad to recognise the concerns that are being raised by the individual and the organisation concerned. As I tried to make clear in my opening speech, this has not been a perfect consultation process and we recognise that we could do better in the future when putting together proformas for the gathering of this type of information. We want to take into account all those concerns.

The language that is used in the draft form, in respect of the specific area about which Lewis Macdonald's constituent is concerned, mirrors pretty much exactly what was suggested to us by the Commission for Racial Equality. The truth is that there does not seem to have been a uniformity of opinion on all these matters, and some people feel strongly about them. In the future, by taking a longer run at the problem we will be able to go a lot further towards leaving all parties happy with the final result.

That community feels that it has had no direct access to the consultation process. It is worth highlighting publicly that, although parliamentary consultation is very open, it is sometimes necessary for people to put their oar in and tell us that they want to be heard. This committee is always happy to listen to people if that is possible.

I shall convey your comments to the people concerned, and they will receive a copy of what you have just said. Lewis Macdonald can take that back to his constituent.

Does anyone else feel that this matter should be fought, debated and argued over further?

Members indicated disagreement.

The question is, that the motion in the minister's name be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Motion agreed to.

That the Justice and Home Affairs Committee recommends that the draft Census (Scotland) Amendment Order 2000, to the extent that it relates to the particulars printed in italics in article 2(3), be approved.

Before I demit office, I must seek the agreement of members that the committee should produce a short and simple report giving our recommendations on this matter to the Parliament. It will come to us by e-mail and committee members will have the chance to comment on it before it is sent for publication—although, if this afternoon is anything to go by, there will not be much comment.

Members indicated agreement.

I may have to go out again.

There was no discussion at all.

No doubt that was a great relief to the minister.