Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 28, 2022

Business Motion

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-05253, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to this week’s business. Any member who wishes to speak against the motion should press their request-to-speak button now.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following revision to the programme of business for Wednesday 29 June 2022—

after

followed by Ministerial Statement: Tackling Child Poverty Delivery Plan – Fourth Year Progress Report (2021-22)

insert

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill - UK Legislation

delete

6.15 pm Decision Time

and insert

6.30 pm Decision Time

(b) for the purposes of consideration of the legislative consent memorandum on the Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill, Rule 9B.3.5 of Standing Orders is suspended;

after

followed by Members’ Business

insert

followed by Members’ Business—[George Adam]

The Presiding Officer

I call Stephen Kerr to speak to and move amendment S6M-05253.2.

21:35

Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)

I am genuinely sorry to detain the chamber tonight. However, earlier today, we heard the First Minister’s statement on her proposed independence referendum. Aside from it being the furthest thing from the minds of the people of Scotland in terms of their priorities, it is clear from the First Minister’s statement that such a referendum could in fact be illegal. Indeed, in her statement, the First Minister said that the Lord Advocate has today sought the UK Supreme Court’s view on the legality of holding a referendum without a section 30 order.

The question that begs to be answered is whether that move was made out of pure curiosity, or whether it was made because the Lord Advocate refused to certify Nicola Sturgeon’s wildcat referendum as competent. Is the Supreme Court giving its view on the proposed bill? In that case, what about future amendments?

I heard the First Minister say that she will respect the Supreme Court’s decision if it agrees with her, but will blame Westminster if it does not. How utterly ludicrous. What is the Lord Advocate’s view on that position?

We do not have the answers to those questions, and we will not have the opportunity to ask them until September or later. That is simply not good enough, especially given the proposed timetable for the referendum.

It is therefore imperative—[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Members, please could we hear Mr Kerr? Thank you.

Stephen Kerr

It is therefore imperative that the Lord Advocate delivers a statement to the chamber tomorrow and answers questions from MSPs on the serious legal considerations surrounding the proposal, which has been made at the expense of the Scottish public.

My amendment seeks to insert such a statement into the programme for tomorrow’s business, and I encourage all members to support it.

I move amendment S6M-05253.2, to insert after “followed by Ministerial Statement: Tackling Child Poverty Delivery Plan - Fourth Year Progress Report (2021-22)”:

“followed by Statement by the Lord Advocate on Independence Referendum Legal Considerations”.

The Presiding Officer

I call Douglas Ross to speak to and move amendment S6M-05253.1.

21:38

Douglas Ross (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. As others have said, I know that we have been detained tonight, but members have very important issues—[Interruption.]. I am sorry that I am—[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Please proceed, Mr Ross. We will hear Mr Ross—thank you.

Douglas Ross

I am really sorry that Scottish National Party members want to shout this down. I am asking—[Interruption.] I am asking—[Interruption.]

The Presiding Officer

Excuse me. Members! Please proceed, Mr Ross.

Douglas Ross

I am asking for Parliament to have an opportunity to discuss an issue that has affected Moray women and families since 2018 and continues to do so. The response tonight from SNP members who do not want to hear it is, I think, disgraceful for people in Moray who have suffered for so long.

To give the background, in 2018, we were told that there would be a temporary downgrade of our maternity services for up to one year. Four years on, that downgrade is still in place. [Interruption.] Oh, come on—please!

Members: Oh!

The Presiding Officer

Excuse me, members. I know that each and every member would like to be heard when they are speaking. If we could please remember to treat one another with courtesy and respect.

Douglas Ross

The standing orders of the Parliament allow members up to five minutes to move an amendment to the business motion. That is what I am trying to do. It may help SNP members to support my amendment if they hear why this matter is so important.

I declare an interest, as this is an issue that has affected my family, but it affects hundreds of Moray families every single year. We know from D C Thomson’s hard-hitting “Stooshie” podcast, which featured Marj Adams from the maternity unit for Moray—Keep MUM—campaign, that campaigners do not believe that the issue is getting enough focus in the Parliament.

There have been two recent events that I think make the issue even more crucial, and which make the response from SNP members even more depressing. One is a recent road closure on the A96, which led to a 10-mile diversion. That is bad enough for any commuter, but imagine what that would have been like for me a year ago on Thursday, when my son and my wife were in the back of an ambulance, to have had to follow them along a 10-mile diversion, round by Inchferry, to get back on to the A96. Imagine what that is like for families who cannot get an ambulance and have to go in their own car.

There was an example on 22 May this year when a woman gave birth in her car. Her husband was driving her and was timing the contractions at the same time. He had to call an ambulance using the headset in the car. He also had to help to deliver the baby. He had to tie his shoelace around the umbilical cord. He had to take off his shirt and his wife’s cardigan to keep the new-born baby warm for 15 minutes, until the ambulance arrived.

This is a crucial issue, and it has cross-party support.

Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

I share many of Douglas Ross’s concerns about the situation. Would he agree with me that it surely cannot be safer to give birth in a roadside lay-by than to give birth in Dr Gray’s hospital in Elgin?

Douglas Ross

Absolutely. I whole-heartedly agree with Rhoda Grant. She has been crucially involved in the discussions with local campaigners and others.

My amendment simply asks for the Government to make a statement on Thursday, which is the final sitting day before the summer recess. That is crucial, because Humza Yousaf, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care, said in March this year:

“I can promise Douglas Ross two things. First, I will keep him and the Parliament updated on the timescales. We will be open and transparent about them ... Timetables and timescales are absolutely important.”—[Official Report, 30 March 2022; c 48-49.]

The NHS Grampian board minutes from 7 April this year said:

“Timelines for planning for Model 4 were to be provided by June 2022”—

that is, in the next two days.

If we do not accept my amendment to have a statement on Thursday, we will have to wait until September before Parliament can debate the issue. If the update is not available by the end of this month—Thursday—the health secretary will surely want to come to Parliament to tell MSPs why, and what he is doing to urge the health board to deliver. If those timelines are ready, surely Parliament should have the opportunity to discuss that.

The business manager always likes to suggest that there are options other than getting a statement inserted. I wrote to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care a number of weeks ago, asking him to make a statement; I have not had a response. My party has repeatedly asked at the Parliamentary Bureau for a statement to be inserted. Tonight, therefore, is the final opportunity for me to put one into the Parliament’s business on Thursday.

I sincerely hope that the Minister for Parliamentary Business will signal that the SNP Government will accept the amendment and will insert that statement on Thursday, the last sitting day when the Parliament can scrutinise the matter for months. If the SNP Government as a whole refuses to provide that statement, I hope that the likes of Richard Lochhead and other members who represent Moray, the Highlands and Islands and North East Scotland will put their constituents first, not their party, and support my amendment.

I move amendment S6M-05253.1, to insert after “Thursday 30 June 2022—”:

“after

12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions

insert

followed by Ministerial Statement: Moray Maternity Services Update”.

The Presiding Officer

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

21:44

The Minister for Parliamentary Business (George Adam)

I will be as brief as I can be, as it has been a long day and evening for us.

With regard to Douglas Ross’s points about Moray maternity services, that matter has been discussed at the bureau on a number of occasions. Mr Ross himself brought up the fact that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care has committed to keeping Parliament up to date on the matter and will do so when updates are available. The Scottish Government is expecting reports from NHS Highland and NHS Grampian, and we must consider those reports in full before final decisions are made.

With regard to Stephen Kerr’s request for a statement by the Lord Advocate on independence, the Lord Advocate would be constrained in what she would be able to say at this stage about the substantive legal issues regarding the proposals. Members know that the sub judice—that is easy for me to say—rule is recognised by rule 7.5 of standing orders by reference to the Contempt of Court Act 1981. That rule properly prohibits parliamentary debate of matters that are currently before the courts. Its purpose is to help to maintain the boundaries of the relationship between the legislature and the judiciary, and it should be respected on that basis.

The 1981 act is concerned with hearings and does not spell out when proceedings are active specifically for references like the one made today. However, there is a reference to the Supreme Court and, as papers are now with the court, ministers and the law officers wish to honour the current principles.

Like the First Minister, I cannot commit the Lord Advocate to anything. However, the remaining matters to which the law officers might be able to speak, to the limited extent to which it is appropriate for them to do so at this stage, do not call for an urgent statement.

I assure members that we and, more importantly, the Lord Advocate will take further steps to explore with the court and other parties how to make available details of the arguments in the cases. That has been done in some other Supreme Court cases. We wish to discuss that with the court and other parties now that the court proceedings are under way.

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that amendment—[Interruption.] Members, if I might have your attention.

The question is, that amendment S6M-05253.2, in the name of Stephen Kerr, which seeks to amend motion S6M-05253, in the name of George Adam, on changes to this week’s business, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division. I would be grateful if, at this point, members would please—[Interruption.] I am hearing rude and discourteous shouting. I am not entirely sure what is going on across the chamber, but I would be very grateful if it would just cease.

I ask members to refresh their screens, because it has been a while since the previous vote.

Members should cast their votes now.

Voting is over.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McAllan, Màiri (Clydesdale) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 50, Against 66, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

The next question is, that amendment S6M-05253.1, in the name of Douglas Ross, which seeks to amend motion S6M-05253, in the name of George Adam, on changes to this week’s business, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Burnett, Alexander (Aberdeenshire West) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Choudhury, Foysol (Lothian) (Lab)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Leonard, Richard (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow) (Lab)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Rowley, Alex (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)
Whitfield, Martin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Whittle, Brian (South Scotland) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)

Against

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 51, Against 66, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

The next question is, that motion S6M-05253, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to this week’s business, be agreed to.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees—

(a) the following revision to the programme of business for Wednesday 29 June 2022—

after

followed by Ministerial Statement: Tackling Child Poverty Delivery Plan – Fourth Year Progress Report (2021-22)

insert

followed by Legislative Consent Motion: Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill - UK Legislation

delete

6.15 pm Decision Time

and insert

6.30 pm Decision Time

(b) for the purposes of consideration of the legislative consent memorandum on the Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill, Rule 9B.3.5 of Standing Orders is suspended;

after

followed by Members’ Business

insert

followed by Members’ Business

Coronavirus (Recovery and Reform) (Scotland) Bill

Point of Order

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 28, 2022

Contents

Business Motion