Contents
sportscotland
Item 3 is an evidence session with sportscotland. I welcome to the committee Stewart Harris, who is the chief executive of sportscotland, and Mel Young, who is its chair. I invite you to make an opening statement.
Thank you for inviting us along. We are very keen to give evidence today. In the global scheme of things, the key inputs that sport can have for the wider population—it is not just about winning medals—are beginning to be recognised. I travel round the world a lot in connection with sport and this area. Lately, Governments around the world have been starting to recognise the impact that sport can have on the wider community through the social agenda and the health agenda. In work that I have done that is not connected with sportscotland—on the homeless world cup, for example—sport has been used to make an intervention in the lives of the most marginalised people on the planet and changes those lives as a result. There are many other examples of how sport can be used in different areas to create change.
We in sportscotland have created a system that is connected. It connects the community and high performance in one overall system to make an impact and create change. When I am in other countries talking about Scotland, Governments and others are interested. They say that Scotland appears to be ahead of the curve. We are definitely ahead of the curve in terms of the integrated system that we have in Scotland. It is something to be proud of and something that we can grow.
It is interesting to be sitting here today. Sport is part of the active Scotland policy, which is innovative and world leading. Sport has a critical role to play in that. Obviously, on its own it cannot sort out all the health challenges that we have across Scotland, but it can work with other areas. There are plenty of examples of that, but we need to do it better.
We are very happy to be sitting here, having this discussion and giving evidence today. We would be delighted to answer your questions.
The committee is looking at participation in sport. What is the main barrier to participation in sport?
We have tried to put in place a system that breaks down those barriers, and there is a degree of universality about that. We have a foothold in every school in the country and we give every young person an opportunity to try activity, sport and physical education and we are beginning to join that up with what is happening in the community. We are looking at a system in which schools are connected to the community and performance is driven by people and facilities, and we are beginning to build capacity across the country. We must continue to do that, so we need more people to be involved and we will continue to look at how we can access more facility time in every authority in the country.
There is lots of progress being made and there is lots to do. We think that the system approach is offering greater value than the funding-stream, project-based approach that there probably has been in the past.
Does that universality mean that you do not target areas of multiple deprivation?
We have taken the view that targeting every school in the country gives us an input into each of those schools. If we have a system, we then have more opportunity to target. Going forward, we will work with local partners. We are also quite keen to look at how we get closer to education in some of the attainment challenge authorities and how we can contribute to the attainment agenda. We also want to offer more and better opportunities for people in every community across the country. So that universality is—
You do not target at the moment.
In the schools area, we have gone for every single school.
So you do not target.
In that instance, no.
What evaluation is being done of the active schools programme?
We have an annual evaluation—
What independent evaluation is being done of the programme?
Each co-ordinator contributes to data gathering. All the data is collected nationally, and each co-ordinator has as the job of forwarding all the data from their school. We therefore have data from every single school. Equally, from time to time we have independent evaluation of how we are getting on. Over the past four or five years, there has been a huge amount of progress in that we have built the numbers and access for children across the country.
Who carried out that independent evaluation, and has it been published?
The evaluations have all been published. I cannot remember the last contributor.
Can you provide the committee with that information?
Yes, we can do that. We will provide the committee with as much detail as we can.
I want to touch on the issue of universality, which you mentioned. Based on your comments earlier, would it be fair to say that you think that it is an important role of sportscotland to increase participation in sport among those who are currently inactive and those who come from the least wealthy areas, given the lower level of participation in sport among people in more deprived areas?
Yes, I think that that is our role. We have a strategic role of looking at how we bring partners together to create physical activity strategies across the country. We are looking at how we bring together partners from health, the local authority, the trust—everyone locally who can contribute to people being active across the piece.
The aim is to have a physical activity strategy that looks at play, dance, sport and recreation, and active living, and for us to be a part of that solution locally. Our contribution is to add value to local resources—a local focus in school sports, clubs and leisure and recreation. From our perspective, we have both a strategic role and a contributory role to ensure that we add value to each local community.
However, in the projects that you support, you do not measure activity levels based on the criteria of being in one of the two groups that I mentioned. You measure activity levels based on, for example, sex and age, but you do not measure according to someone’s background or whether, before they came to an event, they were inactive. You cannot distinguish whether little Johnny is coming along to four events a week instead of three, and is already active, because you do not measure that.
I think that the recent BBC documentary “The Medal Myth” concluded that nine out of 10 participants in your performance sport programme went to a private school or a school in a wealthy area. You do not measure that at the moment. Why do you not measure it? Why did the documentary makers have to do their own research to get that information, if it so important to increase activity among people who are inactive and people from deprived areas?
From our perspective, we believe that, by building that system and by having an impact on and a contribution to every single school in the country, we create the opportunity. We are too small to do it alone and, fundamentally, we work in partnership across all those areas. Our aim and aspiration is to have more and better opportunities. You are correct that we have not managed to touch everyone yet, but we want to create more and better opportunities.
I would prefer to look at the information in a slightly different way. Two thirds of the more talented individuals who are involved in sport at the top end come from state schools. We aspire to improve that; we aspire to give everyone the opportunity.
We measure absolutely everything that we do with respect to intervention. Every single school submits data. Every single community sport hub submits data. We are seeing growth in all those areas. They are big samples. In the schools arena, we are talking about nearly 300,000 young people. In the community sport hubs, there are over 100,000 people. Those are not small samples for measurement.
We believe that, with partners, we are beginning to tackle that. We have to improve how we measure whether inactive people are becoming more active. Locally in the east end of Glasgow, we are looking at how we can work together with Clyde Gateway, the NHS and Glasgow Life to get people to be more active, from simply leaving the house to taking some exercise at a local sports centre. Although there are general measures of progress, we have to look more closely, as partners, at the specific question of how that translates on the ground.
11:15
I want to ask about the budget proposals. The total budget for sport for the coming year, 2017-18, is down by 7 per cent in cash terms and 8.3 per cent in real terms. I accept that that is the sport budget and not the sportscotland budget, but can you tell us what those reductions imply?
From our point of view, that has serious implications for what we are trying to do. As I said earlier, we are building a system. That is developing and we are getting more people involved.
There is another hit, too, in that lottery receipts are going down. In addition to the budget reduction, that lottery reduction will have a further impact on us. Taking those two together, I think that serious cuts will have to be made in about three areas. One of those is potentially in the sports themselves. The second cut will be in the number of people involved. More than 1,000 people are connected in some way with the funding. Thirdly, serious thought will have to be given to redundancies in sportscotland, although we do not want to go down that route. The overall budget component for sport in Scotland is 0.14 per cent. That investment from the Scottish Government has a massive impact. If the strategy is to get Scotland to be a healthy nation and to become more active, the last thing that we should be doing is cutting the sports budget. The budget reduction represents a challenge for us, but the two reductions together are particularly challenging.
We will take a prioritisation approach. Although we passionately believe in the system of school to community to performance, and the people and facilities that underpin that, we will have to hit performance sport quite hard this time round, because our priority will be community, and giving opportunities across the nation. Rather than taking a salami-slicing approach, we are taking a brave approach, in which we say, “Here are the things that we think we must prioritise—the choices that we make will be in those areas.” We will try to keep a balance so that we do not break the system completely. However, that prioritisation approach is vital. We cannot take lumps out of the system and hope that it will continue to deliver, not just in engagement and participation terms but in terms of medal success. All are equally valuable, but in this instance we will have to prioritise community.
Do you have any concern that that approach could break the performance system completely?
We will be as measured as we can be about taking that forward. You have probably seen that one or two sports have been completely taken out of the funding and investment system at the United Kingdom level. We will try to avoid that and ensure that we do not break any particular sport. However, we will have to be very specific with each sport to ensure that each one is clear on what its targets and ambitions are, and on what it will try to achieve, both in supporting community development and in performance.
To be honest, this is not ideal. As Mel Young said, the double whammy with the lottery receipts is quite challenging, but we will continue to talk to the Government about how we take things forward. Belief in the system is vital. We see that as unique to Scotland, and it gives us a better chance of achieving our twin goals on performance and participation.
This seems to be a surprising conversation to be having a couple of years after the Commonwealth games and hearing a lot about its legacy. How would you assess the legacy? How concerned are you about the funding for it?
I will give you a specific example. Our Commonwealth games legacy commitment with regard to partners was a target to create 150 community sport hubs, and we deliberately focused on that. We now have 157, and we will continue to prioritise them. I think that I have mentioned that more than 100,000 people are involved in the hubs. We are bringing communities and sports and activities together to make that more sustainable and to offer communities a chance to do more things for themselves. That is a key priority for me. The twin goals of participation and performance are important in building any system, but we have to protect that part of the system that gives people opportunities to participate locally, whatever their reasons for participating.
The strategy was deliberate; sportscotland could have focused on a lot of different things, but we focused on one infrastructure project across all 32 local authorities. It has been a success. All our partners can probably report similarly on their own local plans for building a legacy.
On priorities and targeting, I note that, since the Commonwealth games, there has been a 3.9 per cent fall in physical activity among children, and more notably among girls. That seems quite surprising. When you see such figures, do you step in and take action to try to address the situation?
Yes, we do. Again, I will give you a specific example. We work with each local authority on active schools. At the moment, the gender breakdown is 52 per cent boys to 48 per cent girls, and we want to try to continue to improve that. Local authorities produce their results every year, and we do not wait on other measures to tell us that there is an issue; we focus on what is happening locally, and we take a customised approach in which we sit down with each authority and ask how we address the matter.
There will always be changes, no matter whether that is because of gaps in staffing or other issues with schools. We cannot always be going on an upwards trajectory; sometimes it plateaus, and sometimes it dips. Regardless of that, we take that action every year with each local authority that we work with on active schools, community sport hubs and whatever other help we give them on local participation.
The physical activity guidelines for children say that they should have 60 active minutes a day. I would suggest—and I am sure that others would agree—that that is in no way sufficient. You have talked about a whole-systems approach; as the Health and Sport Committee, we would suggest that an active Scotland is a healthier and well Scotland.
With regard to engagement with other portfolio areas, you might be aware, for example, that the Government is spending only 1.6 per cent of what is a massive transport budget on walking and cycling. I think that there is general agreement that physical literacy is not what it used to be. Children are not out and about in their neighbourhoods and, for various reasons, are not able to cycle and walk as safely. Have you been asking the Government to look at investment in walking and cycling as part of a physical activity strategy?
Yes, we have. Mel Young has already touched briefly on this issue. Active Scotland as a framework and policy is world leading, but it needs every contributor—sport, education, health, transport and planning—to get around the table, because, ultimately, we all have a responsibility to contribute to it. We need to get better, nationally and locally, at how we partner and how we are then held to account by ministers, Government and committees. It is that partnership and the agreement about what we are going to try to achieve—which is just as you have expressed it—and how we each play a role in that respect that will change population behaviour.
If we want to make the nation more active, we are all going to have to contribute. I have had this conversation before. It cannot be just about sport—our nation is too small. We can play a strategic role in motivating and co-ordinating people as well as playing our own specific role, but we need that co-ordination at both levels. We think that the situation has recently improved locally because we have grabbed that leadership role locally and are bringing partners together, setting a strategy and making sure that everyone has a role to play in delivering against it. We need to improve that, both nationally and locally.
Although I am relatively new to my job as the chair of sportscotland, it is clear to me that the Government is working in silos, and it is vital that, as Stewart Harris has said, we come together around the issue.
I will share an anecdotal example from another country. In Rio, in Brazil, all the bus shelters are mini-gyms. In the mornings, you will see people in suits doing—oddly enough—pull-ups on bus shelters; later on, you will see children doing step-ups and so on. There are also races between the bus shelters, which kids get involved in. That is an example of thinking outside the box slightly, and it might be applicable here—I do not know. Transport and planning have come together with sport, and the role of sport is to say, “Let’s create a race around this.” We need to think and work together in that way in order to come up with such things, because we will increase physical activity by being smart about it.
Following on from Alison Johnstone’s questions, I note that health surveys show that, between 2014 and 2015, there was an 18.5 per cent increase in physical activity levels in the over-75 age group. That is welcome news, particularly given that the 75-plus age group is the least active. What has accounted for that rise? Is it a result of the Commonwealth games legacy or increased investment? How can we build on that progress?
I would certainly not put it down to the games legacy. I think that there is a greater awareness among the older population of the health benefits of physical activity, and there are now more co-ordinated opportunities locally. One example of our contribution is that, where there is a community sport hub, we can connect cycling clubs, walking clubs, swimming clubs and whatever people like to it. In fact, perhaps a community sport hub should be a community hub—full stop. We think that there are lots more opportunities, but collectively as a society we need to get better at showing people where those opportunities are. That is the job of local agencies, helped by us and by others. I think that there is a greater awareness of the health benefits of physical activity, plus there are more social and group opportunities such as jogging clubs, cycling groups and community sport hubs that are helping to contribute to that.
I was thinking about the percentages of those aged 75-plus who met the physical activity recommendations. In 2012, it was 25 per cent; in 2013, 26 per cent; in 2014, 26 per cent; and in 2015, 31 per cent. Perhaps “games legacy” was not the correct term, but people might have been inspired by the games. Do you think that the games increased awareness of the benefits of physical activity?
Absolutely. We are often asked about the inspiration effect. Inspiration requires action, though, and whenever a young person—or even someone of my age or older—is inspired to do something, they have to know where to go and what to do. There then needs to be social acceptance of and camaraderie around the activity to encourage someone to stick at it. Awareness is as high as it has ever been, whether among older people looking at the health benefits—quality of life, extension of life and mitigation of chronic illness and disease—that physical activity can bring or among young people running about daft at school or at home before they begin to get into some more formal sporting activity at what is the right time for them.
The level of awareness is much better and the system approach is in good shape. We continue to get good feedback from partners in other countries who think that we have a really good product here, but we have to ensure that it continues to develop and evolve. We are not asking for a huge amount of money, but we have something that is working pretty well and which we must try to protect in order to achieve the two outcomes of people of whatever age being active and engaged and then, through progression, getting better at something.
11:30
I represent the Highlands and Islands region. As well as the other barriers that folk face in trying to get involved in sport, those in the region that I represent have to tackle the issue of geography. Much of what happens in competitive sport takes place in the central belt. My own kids have had to get up in the middle of the night on a Saturday to travel down on a bus to Glasgow to perform, apparently, in some sort of competition starting at 9 o’clock on a Sunday morning. What are your aspirations for encouraging participation across the whole of the country? I know that islanders face a particular challenge with regard to expense.
That is a good question. Just last weekend, I was up in Orkney for the sports awards, and it was a great social gathering and a great celebration of all things good in sport there.
I have a couple of answers to your question, but I want to focus first on the islands before I look at the rural issue. We are trying to build capacity and infrastructure on the islands in terms of facilities, access and expertise. Over the past 10 to 12 years, we have—to be fair—been committed to all 32 local authorities, but we have looked specifically at the island communities because they face a real challenge. We have had some discussions recently with the islands—
Can I ask where you have focused your attention? Is it mainly on the northern isles, or is it on all the islands?
The main focus for us has been Shetland, Orkney and the Western Isles. We recognise that there are other island communities—
There are more islands.
Yes, but, to be fair, they all come under their local authorities. In Argyll and Bute, for example, we cover the islands as part of the local authority strategy. I hope that we do not exclude any community, because we think that building capacity in local communities is vital. We have looked at how we can help talented athletes or those on that performance pathway with transport off the islands or from deeply rural areas in order to get to competitions, and we often require the help of ferry companies and air companies as part of that solution. Again, the integrated approach is important. We have had discussions with island local authorities about clubs and schools coming off the islands for competitions, but that is a bit more challenging, because the affordability of doing that across the piece is quite a difficult issue. Nevertheless, we think that we have done a good job in helping to understand the needs of communities.
For those on the talent pathway, we have just put in place another tranche of support that will probably help 60 athletes not just from the islands but from the Highlands get to training sessions that will help take them to the next level. We are well aware of those needs locally.
Following on from that, I want to look at the accessibility of sponsorship and funding for all. Because of the easy access to good mountain biking facilities, cycling is huge in the village of Strathpeffer where I live. A couple of young lads in the village have taken that to the next level and are competing at a very high level in cycling; indeed, one of them is doing it nationally and internationally. However, the other has a disability, and it is much harder for him than it is for the other lad to access funding and sponsorship in order to make progress to the elite level.
Yesterday, I saw a news story about a female boxer; in fact, it was all over last night’s news. A promotion guy who for his whole life had been against women doing that type of sport had been won round by that lassie. It is difficult for women to gain funding. For example, my daughter is a brilliant footballer, but she will never manage to make a living at it. What are you doing to tackle that type of issue?
We would obviously want to support as many athletes as possible. Equalities are at the heart of what we do in sport. More generally, the Paralympics have inspired people to get involved in sport and have probably helped with the issue of inclusion of those with a disability in wider society.
On the issue of sponsorship, however, the level of private sector support is really poor in Scotland. Compared with other countries, Scotland is way behind on that. We are doing really well with sport and there is more that we can do at not just community level but higher to support athletes, but, as I have said, the level of private sector sponsorship and support is really poor. We would want to look at that to see how we can improve it, because there seems to be a view that the Government should just do all of this when, of course, it cannot. Having the private sector come to the table would help enormously. On the sportscotland side, we would certainly want to support the two people that you mention and do so in the best way that we can.
In some cases, it probably depends a little bit on standards in the event in question. There is a bit of a cut-off. Once you reach a particular standard, you unlock more resources and get more help from the system.
Indeed. One challenge is that the lad with a disability started out as a mountain biker but because mountain biking is not a Paralympian event he has had to convert to a different kind of cycling.
I had a conversation with a young lad with some significant disabilities who boxes. There is no outlet in the Paralympics for that, but he still wants to box. We can help where we can with local opportunities and we can try to improve the coaching in his club to help him specifically, but there is no Paralympic outlet for him.
The lad I am talking about is in a coaching group, but his coach is based in Manchester and he has to trek down there on the train with his bike, which is tricky.
Good morning. I have a specific question about the primary school estate. In my experience, we are not really utilising the primary school estate for sport. I am interested to hear your comments on that and how you think, post school hours, we can have more sport at primary schools. When I have been on visits, I have found that often when the school day finishes the buildings are locked up. I think that we are missing a great opportunity to utilise them more.
You have probably realised that it is an aspiration of mine that schools become community hubs and a focus for sport and other activities in a very programmed way, in order to ensure that it is very clear where opportunities are so that people can get involved.
A study that we did a few years back showed that the school estate is 95 per cent available—meaning that that there was someone there to look after the building, to open and close it, and to take care of health and safety. However, only 55 to 60 per cent of the school estate is accessed. We are progressing that in our discussions with every single local authority—we are looking at how they build capacity and access to facilities. The only way we will increase participation or engagement is to increase capacity and availability of space. It is not a competition, but often there is a focus on coaching and volunteering. That is right—but it has to go hand in hand with facilities, space and programming so that we make the most of the spaces, as well as having places where coaches can coach and volunteers can work with groups.
We cannot be silly about this: there is a cost attached. However, the bottom line is that we would like in each local authority a programmed approach that maximises available space, in particular in relation to use of schools, because they are deep in communities and sit in what I think are really good spaces for community activity and engagement. For me, that will probably be one of the biggest factors in developing and sustaining participation in the future. It is about local communities, local spaces, and local uptake.
I will add to that point. Where we are going at sportscotland—in terms of what we have to do within the general overall framework—is towards a culture change, and use of schools is just part of it. The questions that committee members are asking are all connected to culture change.
In the past, people have felt that a school is just a school—when it shuts, it shuts, and people go away. To get people to feel that they can all use the school asset requires a culture change that will take time, but it is slowly happening. Across the board what we are desperately trying to do with sport is to get people of all ages, at all levels and wherever they are to automatically get into sport and to play it and get involved wherever it takes place.
Of the 157 community sport hubs, 60 per cent are in schools, which we think is great. We need more, but that is a good start.
What is your plan for making that happen?
The plan for us is to continue—
How will you make that happen when local government budgets are being shredded?
We will continue to work with all local authorities on looking at their estates. The model that community sport hubs enshrine gives the community more responsibility for running its own affairs and its own programmes. Rather than everything being delivered by professional staff, it is clear that there is an economy in giving communities power and responsibility to manage some facilities themselves. That is how we are taking things forward.
It seems to me that there could be a positive mixed economy in Scottish communities—I see no reason why it could not be the case in every local authority area—that would involve an element of programmed activity that would be delivered through professional sources, along with community-driven programmes and clubs and community sport hubs, which would be staffed largely by members of the community. That is what people do in clubs, anyway.
Would such a system be run on magic beans? Where is the money that will make those things happen? To put you in the picture, as the convener of the committee, I am contacted by a lot of people. A number of the people who have contacted me, who include some significant and influential individuals, do not buy the club model that you are promoting. They say that it is exclusive, that it prevents people from accessing sporting activities on the basis of cost, and that cost is the biggest barrier to participation. They charge sportscotland with being elitist and bureaucratic and with not being a grass-roots organisation that is in touch with communities—especially the most deprived communities. They say repeatedly that cost is the biggest barrier to participation, but I have barely heard you mention cost.
Where will the money come from to allow people in the most deprived communities to access sport for fitness and wellbeing? Who knows what they might go on to? I am not particularly interested in whether they become world champions. I just want people to be active and engaged, but I do not see where the money is coming from for your model.
Your comments are interesting and we will take them on board. If any of the people whom you mention want to come and talk to us, we will be happy to meet them.
A number of them said that they have already talked to you, but I will direct them to you.
Thank you for that.
With the resources that are available to us, we work locally to get the best possible local plans. I take your point about availability of resources. A statistic that we have used a number of times is that 90 per cent of the budget for sport in Scotland is locally based. Therefore, there is huge reliance on what happens locally. Sportscotland accounts for only 10 per cent of the total budget. We have to prioritise locally as much as we can the resources that we have available. The system that we have allows us to prioritise and target, so we target communities.
I take on board the convener’s point. There is a triple whammy, if you like. We mentioned our cuts, but there is also the reduction in National Lottery funding, as well as the local authority cuts. The amount of money that is available to sport is a significant issue. Local authorities face a big challenge in deciding between keeping prices low so that people can get involved and getting income in.
We want a system in which everyone can participate at some level. The lack of funding in the sports system, whether in local authorities or in our organisation, is a real challenge—you are absolutely right about that. We must address that issue.
How are you going to address it?
If I was in the Government, I would double the sports budget. I would put more resources into sports because, in the long term, that would have a better effect for society as a whole.
As well as looking at the resources, I would look at doing things in a much smarter way. I know from other work that I have done that it is sometimes not particularly expensive to get people involved at grass-roots level. In some cases, all that is needed is a ball, some volunteers and some creative thinking. We need to think about how we can be smarter and do more at grass-roots level, particularly in the poorest areas. We have ideas about how we can do that.
I do not buy that sportscotland is an “elitist” and “bureaucratic” organisation. We are responsible for administrating public money, so we must have systems that are clear and robust. We provide the catalyst for others to work in the wider community; that is why we do what we do. I believe that sport is a very important part of the fabric of society, so we should invest in it. That is the answer to the convener’s question.
11:45
Just to be clear: you have said that finance will increase participation; therefore, for an individual, the same applies: people’s ability to access sport is strongly correlated with their ability to pay for that access.
I believe so—yes. I am trying to say that people can do sport anywhere. They can do it out in the park quite easily, for example, and it would not cost them anything.
We live in a society in which many people hark back to the days when we just played in the street. Society does not work like that any more; we must have facilities in places where people can go. That is where the barriers are—how to get there, whether there is transport, the cost of being there—and that is what we must look at in the poorest communities where people do not have finance. The challenge is how they can access the facilities. Sport will provide answers.
I have a question about how the culture of elitism in sport acts as a barrier to inclusivity. Right back in my early days at primary school, my experience in P1 and P2 was that we were sorted almost by peer review into those who could play football and those who could not. We were often picked last if we were in the second group, and not often if we were in the first group. That became the received wisdom as we went through the school ranks. I found a school report at the weekend that talked about my lack of interest in football, but I did not lack interest in football; rather, it was perceived that I was not very good at it, which was probably true. Nevertheless, I was interested. The physical education teacher realised that I missed that bar. As a result, it was only in adult life that I found sports that I was good at and interested in, and became active through those sports.
That issue is a massive barrier to kids and goes right up to where the weight of investment is targeted, which is largely at the elite athletes who compete on the global stage. That is where the focus lies. How do we break down that culture of elitism from that early age?
I disagree with your assertion that the bulk of resources is targeted at performance sport. I mentioned that 90 per cent of the budget of sportscotland and local agencies is for school and community sport. With the remaining 5 to 10 per cent, we are probably the only agency that supports the performance end. The word “elitist” does not apply.
That is your budget, but a lot of the total amount of money that is spent on sport in this country—including advertising revenue, sponsorship and so on—is targeted at the elite.
If you mean in some of the professional sports, they are separate, and we have to look at them separately.
May I go back to address your school issue ?
Please do.
Our offer to any member of the committee is to take you to your communities and show you a different outlook.
Our aspiration is equality, with everyone getting an opportunity, having fun and also learning. That is the emphasis in classroom sessions and the curriculum in schools, in integrated physical education lessons and programmes, and in secondary PE teachers working with primary school teachers.
The active schools programmes, connecting schools to the community, are open to all. They are not about competition—competition exists, but it is not about that. I see a completely different world at that level. That is our job, and I think that we have made progress.
Active schools has been in place for 12 years; that sustained investment is really positive. Community sport officers have been working for six or seven years in community sports hubs. The issue is sustaining investment and how we tackle that. What we do is not based on exclusivity. Our ambition is to involve every single child—capacity withstanding, which goes back to a question that was asked earlier. Capacity, in terms of people and space, is one of the issues that we must all focus on in order to get more people active.
I say to anyone around the room: we are happy to come and show you the difference in your own communities. I am not saying that their experience was your experience; however, I see a different thing now in schools and communities across Scotland.
Thank you for coming to the meeting. I want to touch on a couple of things.
Before we leave schools, is there a problem because of the private finance initiative model? It is clear that if we own the school we can get in at any time, but there is a pay-to-play situation under the PFI model. Does it prevent people from accessing facilities?
That has been an issue, but it is not as big an issue now. Schools have been funded by different means. I do not look at that too much—I just want the space to be accessible. If there are difficult conversations to have, local strategic partnerships are about partnership. Many PFI schools are now accessible. Older ones might be slightly more bound to contractual stuff that is more difficult to get around, but I assure members that we are constantly working to improve that capacity in every single local authority area, regardless of how the building was built or funded.
So, those contractual arrangements are being challenged where they need to be.
Yes. Absolutely.
I want to go back to something that you said right at the start about the active Scotland outcomes framework. You made some big claims about it being a world-beating system. Will you talk a wee bit more about how that works and why you see it as being so advanced compared with how everyone else in the world does things?
That came about three or four years ago, when we felt that sport in Scotland was being asked to do its own job plus a host of other jobs. That is great—we will take jobs on where we can—but the challenge is probably too big with the resources that we have. My professional and personal view is that, if we are going to look at changing behaviour and making Scotland an active nation, a very clear policy is needed.
I will give members the two ends of the spectrum; there is a whole bunch of things in the middle. At one end are the inactive people—the issue is getting them more active—and at the other end are the people who are involved in performance sport. There is the issue of skills acquisition in the middle. How do we give people, no matter their age, the ability and tools to participate at the level at which they want to participate? There is a whole dashboard of measures in there. Some of the figures are flat, but not many are going in the wrong direction.
Recently, a survey came out that said that Scotland was in second place in infrastructure and policy terms. We still have to ensure that that is connected to impact. My belief—I have talked about this a lot—is that we will achieve that only when the partnership of portfolios and sectors in health, education, transport and sport, and anyone else who can contribute, comes together to work in a co-ordinated way to make that happen. We will then begin to see progress. However, having the policy, infrastructure and many of the measures in place as a first principle is fantastic.
Rather than expecting sport to do everything on its own and to cover all those areas with the resources that we have, there should be a much bigger corporate, societal, public-sector driven—I hope that we will get commercial support, as well—and public-sector led approach for communities and the people of Scotland. That would offer real opportunity, but we have to realise it. We have continued to talk to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Sport about how important we see that as being and to see whether she can influence other ministers to bring things together.
Okay. Thanks.
On Sunday night, I had a meeting with a local amateur football team. There are a lot of clubs out there whose members all chip in a pound when they get together, and that pays for things. There are many good clubs out there that do a lot of work.
Let us talk about costs. How do the charges that are made for people’s access compare with those in other countries? My local authority area has the passport to leisure, and local authority sport access has increased in North Lanarkshire over the past number of years. Where are we cost-wise compared with other countries?
It is difficult to compare like with like—I do not think that we have that data. We regularly look at costs and we have through the years produced a number of reports that compare costs for the different parts of Scotland, which we can make available if you wish.
Costs can be an issue and, when that happens, people locally should ask why that is. We are happy to be involved in those conversations, because sport and physical activity will be successful only if a transparent two-way conversation takes place locally. We will help to facilitate that and we will try to ensure that an answer is given.
I have another example from Shetland, where we recently helped to add to a new indoor 3G 60m by 40m space that was put in, which could be fantastic for the island of Shetland. Lots of people were sceptical about it being expensive, but one of the very early side benefits of the space is that groups are expanding, because people who go along love the opportunity to use it. The cost is collectively shared by more people, so it is less for each individual, and the whole thing is much more vibrant.
The essence of your question is that cost is an issue. For me, that is a strategic issue that we need to talk about locally. Each local authority profiles cost differently and we need to look at that closely.
When I was at an area partnership meeting in my area on Thursday night, there was an interesting comment from an official about someone who came along and said, “This park is ours—the public’s—and not the council’s. Give me a key to get in so that I can bring my kids,” and the council gave them a key. I suppose that there is an issue of trust about getting the key back, but all the council’s physical facilities belong to the public, although PFI comes into the equation sometimes. How do we build up trust with the local community in order to generate the understanding that the facility is the community’s? A kid can go into a play area and play, but a football park has fences around it and the gate is locked after 5 o’clock. How do we resolve that?
We had a bit of a disagreement about that earlier. A lot of what you describe is the future, although not exclusively, as there should be a balance that involves managed and commercially operated facility spaces with programmes of a different type. We should also give communities the opportunity to manage their own facilities as part of the strategic approach.
How communities manage the cost is part of the responsibility and is an exciting area to look at. The essence is about taking the club model and giving more power to clubs and sports to run their own activities. Every community sport hub is run and managed by a coalition of local people. The sport hub in Armadale is a great example. It is run by 30 groups and clubs, which are not all traditional serious sports clubs—there are also a lot of recreational groups. It is driven by a group of local people, including some young people who help to staff the facility.
We are at the early stages of that model; more community management, community ownership and community partnerships with local agencies are the way forward. I take on board what you said about the cost, but allowing communities to run such things could help in lots of ways.
I have been heartened to hear that sportscotland thinks outside of silos and does joined-up working with other agencies and that you have done so much work at the grass roots. In my community, a huge amount of work is done at the grass roots in community hubs, and we have vocal volunteers to thank for that. Lots of people dedicate a lot of time to that work and they deserve recognition.
I will move on to Brexit. What will its impact be on sport in Scotland? How significant is that issue for sport here and what sports will be most impacted?
We have given formal feedback on the issue. Sport is largely devolved, so the bulk of what we do—95 per cent—is in our hands. The effect will depend on how the economy works and on Government policy in the future, but I will put that to one side.
From a high-performance perspective—I am careful not to use the word “elite”, because we are talking about performance—the free movement of specialist coaches and staff who can help to teach and to bring us to the next level might well be impacted. As we sit here today, goodness knows what is going to happen down the track, but that is the one area where we could see an impact. The rest depends on our own decisions, the economy and how things progress.
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There is a recognition that the impact is more likely to be on the more professional sports, if we look at it in that way.
It relates to the movement of specialists.
Absolutely—it relates to the movement of players, particularly in sports such as football and rugby, as well as the movement of coaching staff, as you said. Have you had any discussions with governing bodies, clubs or major organisations about how that might work and the impact that Brexit might have on them?
Not really. Part of the challenge is that we do not know what will happen, which is difficult. There have been preliminary discussions, but so much is up in the air. We must have on-going discussions as the situation develops with the UK Government.
Have you looked at how a potential loss of EU funding might impact on sport in Scotland?
We do not get much EU funding, but our partners’ programmes include Erasmus, which will be affected. Although the UK Government says that money will replace that funding, there is no guarantee that that will happen. As I have said, so much of this is up in the air, so it is difficult to say.
I do not think that there will be a huge impact on sportscotland from a change in EU funding, but that might be a possibility for particular sports. We will need to focus on Brexit but, as you know, the situation changes week after week, so it is difficult to give a definitive answer.
This place struggles to understand how to leverage sport and its impact. Sport in this country is chronically underfunded, and sportscotland does a remarkable job with the money that it has. The buck should stop in our Parliament. Cutting of the sports budget, including in councils, goes unseen; it is easy to do.
The convener spoke about the cost of access to sport. Such a cost is undeniable. Last night, I was in the Emirates indoor arena, which is smack bang in the middle of the east end of Glasgow and costs £3.50 to get into. Although we have some phenomenal facilities, access is a struggle.
If the ability to access opportunities to be active is reduced, the result will be a cost or a pressure on health, education, transport and welfare—
I am sorry, convener, but is Mr Whittle here to make a statement or to ask a question?
I was just about to say that. Maybe you need to get to the questions, Brian.
I am getting to a question, convener.
We have limited time.
Cutting a sports budget is a false economy. If sportscotland were properly funded over the longer term, how would that impact on how sport is done in this country?
I do not know about the term “properly funded”, but I believe that we need to invest in sport and that, by doing that, we will get long-term benefits. Those benefits will come as part of the overall active Scotland framework, where we have a greater input. If more money was available, bodies could start to do more initiatives. Access to arenas could be subsidised for people who are on certain income levels or from certain areas, so that it would cost zero to get in, which would encourage people to come, even if they had no money. Funds would be required to do that.
Increased investment in sport across the board would have a greater impact on all aspects of society, so we would get a healthier, more active nation and more people participating. We could put funds in the appropriate places in the same way as we do at the moment, because the system that we have is the right one.
Other countries are saying that what is going on in Scotland is really interesting, and it is—to go back to your first point—something that we should be proud of. We should be saying to the world, “Hey! This is what’s going on here.” Impacts have been made with a relatively small budget.
You have to remember that the health challenge is a global one—it is not just in Scotland; it is everywhere—and people are starting to notice that we are ahead of the game. We should therefore be investing more. I am bound to say that, as I am sitting here as the chair of sportscotland, but I am sure that other organisations would say that as well.
I believe fundamentally and passionately that, if we make Scotland a sports nation, the benefits to society will be really significant. A tiny investment would get 10 or 20 times that amount back through the impact on society.
You have been asked a lot about the targets for participation and so on. Do you have sufficient resource to produce the in-depth report that the committee has requested?
We have a lot of information, and it would be good if the committee looked at that. If there are any gaps, we will try to fill them. We take a prioritisation approach and, if we need to look at areas, we will look at them anyway, because they are important.
We have great belief in the system approach, which has to involve the group of partners working collectively. There is some mileage in that, and all of us together could probably look at how measurement happens across the piece.
I have an important point to make about the system. Between 2014 and 2015, the percentage who reached the recommended level of physical activity went down by 2.5 per cent for boys, 5.5 per cent for girls and 3.9 per cent for all children. Is that evidence of a system that is working?
Those statistics are in the public domain. We are looking at every school—we will pull out every single one to look at it—to see how we can improve on the results from year to year.
Today, you have told us that the system is excellent and that everybody around the world is looking at it, but the evidence of its impact on children shows that the system ain’t working.
We are building a system—we have never said that it is finished—and that does not happen overnight. The bottom line is that we have 12 years of investment in the active schools programme, which we think is showing a lot of progress. In the past four or five years, we have seen continuing increases in participation, although not in every single school.
We have not—the figure has fallen back.
I understand the national measures and the snapshot that they show. I am trying to explain what we do around every school in the country, what that picture looks like and what the participation is in those areas.
It is clear that there is a difference between your perception and what has been reported, and that is a problem.
Brian Whittle has a final question.
My question is on that point. I have been at the coalface and I have heard discussions here about capacity. Do you agree that there is an issue with capacity? I have never seen anything like it in my life—in so many sports, there are so many clubs with so many kids wanting to participate, but there are waiting lists. Particularly to achieve the legacy from the Commonwealth games, capacity is one of the things that we really have to target.
We agree about the capacity and infrastructure issues, as we have said a couple of times. That is about how much more space we can have, how we can use better the space that is available and whether we have enough people to look after that space. We will continue to try to build capacity and go in that positive direction, as it will always be an enabler. If you do not enable, activity does not happen and you do not achieve the outcome.
People and places—space—enable participation and progression, and those things need to be continually worked on. The average volunteer lasts three years before they move on to do something different. We have to keep refreshing capacity and work to make it better.
I challenge the figures that you talked about, convener. We will provide the committee with figures that show what we see as increased participation, particularly among young people.
On Brian Whittle’s point, there is an issue around capacity. Anecdotally, I know that gymnastics has suddenly taken off in Glasgow and that there are waiting lists to get into gymnastics clubs. All those kids want to be gymnasts, which is a fantastic story.
The feedback that we are getting on participation is very positive. We have to sit down together and look at how the figures are being arrived at.
The figures are in the Scottish health survey.
I am aware of that. We need to look at them along with our figures and compare and contrast. Our view is that participation is increasing in all age groups across the country.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your evidence. As agreed earlier, we will now go into private session.
12:10 Meeting continued in private until 12:35.Previous
Scottish Health Council