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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 5 May 2021
  6. Current session: 12 May 2021 to 20 July 2025
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Displaying 1555 contributions

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Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

David Mackie, what is your view on the removal of section 23D? Are women’s organisations and victims right to be concerned about that? I presume that you heard the earlier session, where it was unanimously agreed that it should be removed. I still cannot get my head around that, but maybe you can give me your view.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

Good morning. I have three questions—one for each of you. Professor Loucks, you mentioned your organisation’s excellent and very detailed report on the cost to families of imprisonment and release. We do not have time to delve into the report, obviously, but what is its key message?

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

I understand what you are saying, but, if I take that back to perception and to a very simplistic level, that is not how victims of domestic abuse or women’s organisations will see it, because it still gives the impression that it will be easier for alleged perpetrators to get out on bail.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

So, individual risk would be taken into consideration just as much as public risk.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

I am conscious of the time, but I have one other question and, rather than ask everybody to respond, I will ask Joanne McMillan to do so.

It is currently estimated that, at any one time, 30 per cent of the female prison population in Scotland is on remand. To me, that is a huge number. Some 54 per cent of them lose their tenancies, 61 per cent have children, and there are huge knock-on effects for families.

Joanne McMillan talked about a case in which the woman went to the 218 project, which is very successful. In your opinion, why does that not happen more often? Is it because of a lack of resources?

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

From a non-legal point of view, I ask: why remove them anyway? What is the point? It does not send out a good message to non-legal people. From what I have heard this morning, if someone asked me why those provisions were taken out, I am not entirely sure that I could convince them why that was done.

The KC who was here referred to a case in Livingston and the introduction of section 23D in 2005. It was a horrific case—you might remember it. The person who was released went on to kill an 11-year-old boy and then hanged himself. He had been given bail, and the case was so shocking that the then First Minister decided that we needed to do something about it. I am unclear why those provisions are being removed.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

I understand that.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

Do you think that they are getting enough information about that?

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

We know about the serious rates of mental health and addiction problems for domestic abuse victims.

Criminal Justice Committee

Bail and Release from Custody (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 18 January 2023

Rona Mackay

Does it go down to individual solicitors such as you, who know about those things and will proactively look for them? Are there some who just say, “Well, this is the system. This is what happens. You will be remanded” or whatever?