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Chamber and committees

Official Report: search what was said in Parliament

The Official Report is a written record of public meetings of the Parliament and committees.  

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Dates of parliamentary sessions
  1. Session 1: 12 May 1999 to 31 March 2003
  2. Session 2: 7 May 2003 to 2 April 2007
  3. Session 3: 9 May 2007 to 22 March 2011
  4. Session 4: 11 May 2011 to 23 March 2016
  5. Session 5: 12 May 2016 to 4 May 2021
  6. Session 6: 13 May 2021 to 8 April 2026
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Displaying 12205 contributions

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Meeting of the Parliament

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Liam McArthur

Group 10 is on reporting requirements and information collection. Amendment 80, in the name of Martin Whitfield, is grouped with amendments 81, 85 and 86.

Meeting of the Parliament

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Liam McArthur

Group 15 is on resources for implementation of the act. Amendment 35, in the name of Roz McCall, is grouped with amendments 87 to 89.

Meeting of the Parliament

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Liam McArthur

I invite Sue Webber to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 1.

Meeting of the Parliament

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Liam McArthur

Group 13 is on cross-border placements. Amendment 33, in the name of Michael Marra, is the only amendment in the group.

Meeting of the Parliament

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Liam McArthur

Thank you, Mr Rowley. I will make sure that that is recorded.

Meeting of the Parliament

Children (Care and Justice) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3

Meeting date: 24 April 2024

Liam McArthur

Group 14 is on decisions to prosecute children: UNCRC compatibility issues. Amendment 34, in the name of the minister, is grouped with amendments 36 and 39.

19:00  

Meeting of the Parliament

Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Meeting date: 23 April 2024

Liam McArthur

I greatly enjoyed my time on the Justice Committee in the previous session and often find myself missing it, but I do not envy Audrey Nicoll and her colleagues the task of scrutinising this wide-ranging bill. However, I sincerely thank the Criminal Justice Committee for its diligent work, and I add my tribute to the survivors of rape and sexual assault, in particular, for sharing their experience and informing what I think is an excellent stage 1 report.

I also thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for the time that they have taken to engage with me on the many issues arising from the proposed reforms. We have not always agreed, but I am grateful for the characteristically constructive way in which the cabinet secretary has gone about that task.

This is a tricky bill to speak to, as others have alluded to. It is both expansive and complex, and its complexity is born not just of the number of provisions but of their variety. Russell Findlay made that point. The bill brings together the recommendations of Lady Dorrian’s review, alongside other changes. Matters are further complicated by the fact that important changes, which have long been demanded by women’s groups and victims groups, have recently been introduced not by Parliament but from the bench.

In last year’s Lord Advocate’s reference, by overturning Smith v Lees, the High Court appears to have overhauled the principle of corroboration as it applies to sexual offences. As a result, the situation that faces Parliament now, as it considers the bill, is very different from that which applied when the bill was introduced, let alone when Lady Dorrian came forward with her review.

Of course, there are reforms in the bill that are needed—and which, some would argue, are long overdue—and that enjoy fairly widespread support. For example, the introduction of independent legal representation for complainers is very welcome. At present, under section 275 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, complainers can be questioned about aspects of their

“sexual behaviour not forming part of the subject matter of the charge”.

In reality, that has often opened up a situation in which victims have their privacy violated.

The recent legal victory by pioneering campaigner Ellie Wilson against the advocate who cross-examined her will, it is hoped, lead to real change on that front. However, we should not be placing the burden on victims to fight long and drawn-out battles just for the right to decent, fair and respectful treatment in court. They deserve the right to have someone who will fight their corner. That is what the bill gives them, and Scottish Liberal Democrats warmly welcome that reform, as well as the reform to confirm the anonymity of rape victims. Russell Findlay was right to pay tribute to the media for the way in which they have observed that in practice.

Other aspects of the bill are more concerning. Although I do not have time to go into each of those, I will touch on a few that other members have mentioned. The first relates to the introduction of a specialist sexual offences court and a pilot of juryless trials. I recognise the rationale for those proposals and the reasons why Lady Dorrian came forward with her original recommendations. Nevertheless, I still share the concerns that have been expressed by many, both within the legal profession and among colleagues across the parties, in relation to that aspect of the bill.

Overturning a key tenet of our legal system in Scotland was always likely to stir up a reaction. I know that the justice secretary has sought to respond constructively, but I think that it is fair to say that she has so far been unable to allay those concerns. Defence practitioners have made clear their outright opposition, which makes it unclear how any pilot might work, or indeed what success might look like.

Postponing the pilots until 2028 may sound like a compromise, but it raises the question of why on earth Parliament would put a provision in a bill today, rather than leaving it to a future Government and Parliament to decide, further down the line, whether it was felt to be necessary or appropriate in the light of circumstances at that time.

The Diplock standards for juryless trials elsewhere in the UK include an expanded right of appeal for the accused on matters of fact as well as law. That is a safeguard against case hardening, in which judges, who may think that they have heard it all before, begin subconsciously deciding the facts based on their experience of similar cases and not on the merits of the evidence. The UK Supreme Court has reiterated the importance of that safeguard, as did the Dorrian review itself, yet the Government’s proposals include only a narrow right of appeal on matters of law. I understand that the justice secretary has indicated her willingness to make changes, but the proposal seems, at this point, to be beyond salvation.

On a more positive note, Scottish Liberal Democrats remain supportive of the proposed abolition of the not proven verdict, which—as Audrey Nicoll and others suggested—has had its day. Nonetheless, like many witnesses and members of the Criminal Justice Committee, and even the Lord Advocate, we are not convinced about the proposed changes to jury size and majority rules. That aspect may yet be salvageable, but the Government has its work cut out.

Plans to create a separate victims commissioner appear to be well meaning but are misguided. Instead of swelling the ranks of commissioners and ombudsmen, there is a much stronger case for using any resources that are available to support existing organisations that currently do invaluable work in supporting victims, highlighting their needs and advocating on their behalf.

With this bill, the cabinet secretary appears to be adopting the kitchen-sink approach to justice reform. I appreciate the attraction of doing so when it comes to the interests of victims and witnesses, but I worry that the Government may be biting off more than it can chew in a single piece of legislation. For that reason, while I will certainly be happy to take up the cabinet secretary’s offer of continued engagement, as I will with the committee, I find myself very much in the same position as Pauline McNeill in not being able to support the bill at stage 1.

Meeting of the Parliament

Two-child Benefit Cap

Meeting date: 23 April 2024

Liam McArthur

The final item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S6M-12841, in the name of Clare Haughey, on the seventh anniversary of the two-child benefit cap.

The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I would be grateful if members who wish to participate could press their request-to-speak buttons.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament regrets to mark the seventh anniversary of the introduction by the UK Government of the twochild benefit cap, and the associated so-called rape clause; notes with alarm reports that over 87,000 children across Scotland are affected by the cap, including 3,610 in South Lanarkshire; further notes the work of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which reports that the poverty rate for children in families with three or more children was almost twice as high as the poverty rate for children in one- or two-child families in 2021-22, at 43% compared with 23% and 22% respectively, as a result of UK welfare policies such as the two-child benefit limit; highlights what it considers to be the contrast between the inhumane practices of the UK Government’s Department for Work and Pensions and the compassionate approach of the Scottish Government’s Social Security Scotland; understands that the Scottish Government has already spent more than £733 million over the last five financial years to mitigate UK Government welfare policies, despite what it sees as a remarkably challenging financial environment and the fiscal limitations of devolution; notes that the Scottish Child Payment and other devolved policies are forecast to keep up to 100,000 children in Scotland out of relative poverty in this financial year; further notes the view that Scotland should continue to build a social security system that is founded on dignity, fairness and respect, and notes the calls urging the UK Government to reverse the two-child benefit cap and what it regards as the other abhorrent and ineffective welfare reforms that have been implemented over more than a decade of austerity.

17:40  

Meeting of the Parliament

Two-child Benefit Cap

Meeting date: 23 April 2024

Liam McArthur

Speak through the chair, Mr Balfour.

Meeting of the Parliament

Gender-identity Healthcare for Young People

Meeting date: 23 April 2024

Liam McArthur

The minister will now take questions on the issues that are raised in her statement. I intend to allow around 20 minutes, after which we will need to move on to the next item of business. I would be grateful if members who wish to ask a question would press their request-to-speak buttons if they have not already done so.