Official Report 1017KB pdf
Our next item of business is continuation of our consideration of the Hunting with Dogs (Scotland) Bill at stage 2. I welcome back Màiri McAllan, the Minister for Environment and Land Reform, and her supporting officials. I also welcome back Colin Smyth and Edward Mountain. Beatrice Wishart will join us remotely.
Section 3—Exception: management of wild mammals above ground
Amendment 69, in the name of Edward Mountain, is grouped with amendments 70, 114, 140, 115, 203, 71, 36, 120, 29, 121, 223, 37, 97, 98, 125, 141, 126, 226, 38, 99, 128, 32, 129, 230 and 39. I remind members of the pre-emptions in the group.
Before I make any comments, I remind the committee of my declaration in the register of members’ interests, which shows that I am part of a family farming business and that I manage land.
All my amendments in this group relate to the same part of the bill and seek to change the wording to say that the aim must be to shoot the wild mammal dead. You cannot, as the bill suggests, always shoot the wild mammal dead, but the aim must be to do so. I think that that meets the minister’s requirement that the animal should not be wounded and subsequently chased, which I believe is the minister’s fear. My aim is to make it clear that the provision is about the intention to shoot the animal dead. It is always the intention of a person with a gun to shoot the quarry dead, but it is not always possible to achieve that.
I turn to the rest of the amendments in the group. I support Rachael Hamilton’s amendments. I have already made sufficient comment during previous meetings on Colin Smyth’s amendments relating to falconry, and I do not propose to rerun my comments—I shall comment at the end, if that is appropriate. Beatrice Wishart’s amendments seem sensible, but I would like to listen to what she says before I comment.
I move amendment 69.
Amendments 114, 120, 125 and 128, in my name, would remove the use of a bird of prey as a method of killing. That is neither a humane nor an efficient method of killing, and there is therefore no justification for its being a permitted method.
In written evidence to the committee, the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission stated that it is
“not aware of any evidence that killing by a bird of prey is more humane than killing by a dog and would certainly doubt that it could be more humane than competent shooting”.
It is clear that the exception is not in line with the intentions of the bill, so I urge members to support my amendments to remove the inhumane practice of using a bird of prey as a method of killing wild animals. The only argument that I have heard against that is the fact that it is currently legal, which is a pretty lame argument.
Amendments 115, 121, 126 and 129 would specify that dogs are not to be used to kill an injured wild mammal. That is in keeping with a key purpose of the bill and would ensure that more humane methods are used to kill a wounded animal, avoiding the use of that scenario as a cover story. I urge members to support my amendments to ensure that emerging mammals are killed as humanely as possible and that there are no loopholes in the bill that might allow people to continue using dogs to kill wild mammals.
My amendments in this group aim to address potential problems with the existing wording, which leaves it unclear what amounts to taking “reasonable steps” to use the method that causes an animal “the minimum possible suffering”. As the bill is drafted, it could be argued that only the method that causes “the minimum possible suffering” can be deployed, regardless of circumstances. It needs to be made clear that causing “the minimum possible suffering” in the context in which the person is operating constitutes taking “reasonable steps”. The expression “as humanely as possible” is widely used in wildlife and welfare legislation and understood by the courts.
Alternatively, the addition of “in the circumstances” would make it clear that the method of minimum suffering will vary depending on the circumstances, even if there was a method that could objectively be said to cause less suffering but was not possible in the circumstances. It also avoids the argument as to which method is the one that causes the minimum suffering possible. Clearly, the sooner an injured animal is dispatched, the better, but would the person who dispatches it immediately using a knife be using the method causing “the minimum possible suffering”, or would they have had to take “reasonable steps” to obtain a firearm if that could be argued to be a method that caused less suffering?
It might be argued that the existing wording could be construed as recognising that the way of killing an injured animal that causes minimum suffering is relative to circumstances and what is possible but, for the avoidance of doubt, the bill would benefit from an amendment to give a greater degree of certainty to people operating under the legislation and to avoid any vexatious allegations.
Amendments 36 to 39 would allow the person using the dogs to exercise their judgment over how many dogs would be appropriate to cause “the minimum possible suffering”, as they would be best positioned to make that judgment.
Those amendments aim to alleviate suffering for animals, as many others have aimed to do. I urge members to vote for them with that in mind.
I support Colin Smyth’s amendments 114, 120, 125 and 128, which would remove the use of a bird of prey as an accepted method of killing a wild mammal under sections 3 and 5 to 7. The committee heard evidence from, for example, the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission and OneKind that killing a wild mammal with a bird of prey is neither humane nor efficient. There is no justification for its being a permitted method of killing under sections 3 and 5 to 7 when other more humane and effective methods are available.
I understand that the Government does not wish to ban falconry by the back door, but amendments 114, 120, 125 and 128 would not do that. They would simply remove the option to use a bird of prey to kill a wild mammal for wildlife control, environmental benefit or other purposes.
I urge members to vote for Colin Smyth’s amendments.
I am afraid that I cannot support amendments 69 to 71 and 97 to 99, in the name of Edward Mountain, or amendments 36 to 39, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, as they would allow the use of any number of dogs.
I will support amendments 114, 120, 125 and 128, in the name of Colin Smyth, which would remove the exemption for killing by a bird of prey, as I am not aware of any evidence that that method of killing is humane or efficient. I will also support amendments 115, 121, 126 and 129, also in the name of Colin Smyth, as they would ensure that more humane methods will be used to kill a wounded animal and would avoid creating a loophole.
I cannot support Rachael Hamilton’s remaining amendments in the group, as they seem to prioritise human convenience over animal welfare.
Good morning, everyone.
I will begin with the amendments that Edward Mountain led with and then move on to the others.
The effect of amendments 70 and 98, in Mr Mountain’s name, would be that a person would only have to intend to kill a wild mammal after flushing it from cover. That could create another loophole that could allow a person to prolong the hunting of a wild mammal as long as they intend to kill it, which could clearly be detrimental to the animal’s welfare.
The individual’s intention is also incredibly difficult to prove. That could, therefore, create enforcement problems because, if someone is searching for or flushing a wild mammal using a dog for one of the purposes in sections 3 or 6, they cannot achieve that by simply intending to kill it at some point. It is entirely right that, in those circumstances, the law requires that a person take action to kill the wild mammal
“as soon as reasonably possible”.
For those reasons, I cannot support those amendments.
Amendments 29, 32, 140 and 141, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, would remove the condition to kill a wild mammal
“in a way that causes it the minimum possible suffering”
and replace that with the term “as humanely as possible”, thus reintroducing a test from the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002. On the face of it, the amendments might not appear problematic, but we have good reason to require that the wild animal is killed in a way that causes “minimum possible suffering”, as we included in the bill. We deliberately did not use the word “humane”. We considered what that would require in practice, and we tried to be as specific as possible. To do that, we looked to the dictionary definition of “humane”, which is:
“designed or calculated to inflict minimal pain”.
The word “pain” is important there, because we have deliberately referred to “suffering”. The difference is important, because using “humane” would mean that we consider only the physical humaneness of the kill, whereas “suffering” also includes the circumstances that the wild mammal experiences. If we use the term “minimum possible suffering”, a person would not be allowed to put the animal through fear, stress or anguish that causes it to suffer unnecessarily prior to actually killing it. I believe that that is a higher standard and one that we should seek to use. For that reason, I cannot support those amendments.
Amendments 36 to 39, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, would add the conditions to section 3 that dogs may be used to kill a wild mammal in circumstances where the animal has been injured but not killed, the animal is inaccessible and cannot be killed by shooting, or just that killing it in that way is considered humane in the circumstances. Those amendments would, in effect, allow a pack of dogs to kill a wild mammal in certain circumstances, which I think ought to be clear is entirely contrary to the principle of the bill. In fact, we have been clear from the very beginning that preventing and banning the chasing and killing of a wild mammal by dogs is the fundamental premise of the bill, and I think that those provisions could create a very obvious loophole.
In addition to the fact that I cannot condone a pack of dogs killing an injured wild mammal, I am not confident that it would always be possible to establish that a mammal had genuinely been injured prior to being killed by dogs, which would, again, create the uncertainty in enforcement that we have sought to avoid. For those reasons, I cannot support those amendments.
Similarly, amendments 69, 71, 97 and 99, in Edward Mountain’s name, seek to allow a pack of dogs to kill a wild mammal, but do so without any caveats at all. Under those amendments, in our interpretation, a person would only have to attempt to kill a wild mammal before they could set a pack of dogs on it. The amendments would create the glaring loophole of allowing a person to make a token gesture of searching and flushing with two dogs, shooting, missing and then carrying out a hunt with a full pack of dogs. That, again, is contrary to what we are pursuing in the bill, so I cannot support those amendments.
Amendments 114, 120, 125 and 128, in the name of Colin Smyth, pertain to falconry. We rehearsed some of the discussion on this point in last week’s meeting but, to reiterate, falconry is permitted in Scotland as long as it is done in accordance with all relevant legislation. The bill is not about the ethics of wildlife management, or hunting, or falconry for that matter; it is about the regulation of the use of dogs while undertaking those activities. Some falconers will use one or two dogs to flush wild mammals to waiting birds of prey, which is why the bill contains provision to allow wild mammals that have been flushed to be shot or to be killed by a bird of prey. That aligns with the position under the 2002 act.
I understand that, on welfare grounds, some people think that falconry should not be permitted. However, as we discussed last week, it would not be correct for us to use this legislative vehicle to potentially ban lawful activities by the back door.
I wholly support the principle of Colin Smyth’s amendments 115, 121, 126 and 129. I have been very clear that the chasing and killing of wild mammals using dogs has no place in modern Scotland, and therefore I agree that killing a wild mammal in a way that causes it the “minimum possible suffering” can never mean allowing it to be killed by dogs.
Having said that, I have one or two concerns that agreeing to those amendments in their current form could create a degree of inconsistency in the bill. Therefore, if Colin Smyth agrees not to move the amendments today, I would be happy to work with him to draft new amendments at stage 3 that would maintain the consistency of the language that is used in the bill and fulfil what I think he seeks to do with his amendments.
09:30Finally, amendments 203, 223, 226 and 230, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, caveat the condition that,
“if an attempt to kill the wild mammal ... results in it being injured but not killed, reasonable steps must be taken to kill it in a way that causes it the minimum possible suffering”,
by adding the words “in the circumstances”.
Those amendments are not necessary. The bill as currently worded implicitly provides that the minimum possible suffering may depend on the circumstances, because a person can act only in the circumstances in which they are in. The existing condition refers to reasonable steps being taken; therefore, the condition has already been caveated.
I will try to put that simply: the bill already recognises that the reasonable steps that will be taken to kill a wild mammal in a way that causes it the minimum possible suffering will depend on particular circumstances. I worry that, by adding the wording that Rachael Hamilton has suggested, it could be perceived that those provisions allow for the use of dogs to kill a wild mammal in certain circumstances, which is something that I want to avoid. For those reasons, I cannot support those amendments.
I call Edward Mountain to wind up the debate and say whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 69.
I am disappointed that the minister has not considered amendment 69, on the basis that she perceives that it would create a loophole. The amendment aims to achieve a more reasonable approach, based on lived experience of more than 45 years of wildlife and countryside management. Therefore, I am disappointed that she believes that people would use it as an excuse. The legislation is new, and my amendment seeks to make it clear that people would have to aim to shoot an animal dead rather than shoot it dead. It is not always possible to achieve that, which I can say from long experience.
I will make another point about Rachael Hamilton’s amendments that address the most humane way of dispatching a mammal. I am sure that the minister is aware of the practice of mist netting, which is used to remove rabbits in the wild. Do you understand mist netting, minister, or do I need to explain it?
If Edward Mountain wishes to continue with his explanation of that activity, he should do that.
Mist netting is when you put out a soft net, which is propped up, before nightfall. After darkness, once the rabbits have moved to the middle of a field to forage, you would drop the net and move the rabbits back to it. Once they have become entangled in the net, you would then dispatch them. Shooting rabbits in those situations would not be appropriate; dispatching them with a sharp blow to the back of the head is the most effective method. In some circumstances, shooting is not appropriate, and I have rehearsed other circumstances when that might be the case.
I understand the point about mist netting, but what does that have to do with hunting with dogs?
Mr Fairlie will know that, under the bill, two dogs would be used to drive the rabbits back to the nets, which is the way it is done. You would not just expect the rabbits to run into the net; you would drive them away from their burrows and from where they are foraging into it, which is where you would then dispatch them.
I am not convinced by your argument, Mr Mountain.
Speak through the chair, please.
I am not convinced by Mr Mountain’s arguments.
Please continue, Mr Mountain.
I am sorry that I cannot convince Mr Fairlie of a practice that has been going on for many years across Scotland. That is one reason why I think that shooting rabbits and other wild mammals is not always appropriate, which may be something that the committee needs to consider.
I will also mention the issue of injured animals and the use of more than two dogs. I gave an example last week of a deer that had had its jaw shattered—tracking down the animal took, I think, four days. Using two dogs would have made that problem significantly more difficult. It is not that the dogs would have killed the deer; it would have been a question of cornering the animal and dispatching it. As members will know, if deer still have their forelegs, they can survive for a considerable time.
I do not propose to make any comments on Colin Smyth’s amendments, because I do not think that they are right, and I have said that before.
For clarity, I press amendment 69.
The question is, that amendment 69 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 6, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 69 disagreed to.
09:35 Meeting suspended.Amendment 10 moved—[Ariane Burgess].
The question is, that amendment 10 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 10 disagreed to.
Amendment 11 moved—[Ariane Burgess].
The question is, that amendment 11 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Minto, Jenni (SNP) (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 11 disagreed to.
Amendment 113, in the name of Colin Smyth, is grouped with amendments 124, 244 and 242.
Amendments 113 and 124, in my name, would require that “reasonable steps are taken” to ensure that dogs do not form a relay. Mounted hunts in England have been observed using multiple pairs of dogs, one after the other, to chase stags. Amendments 113 and 124 would help avoid a similar practice emerging here in Scotland by making it an offence.
It is crucial that we take the opportunity to ensure that the bill is as robust as it can be, including by pre-empting any possible consequences, which we have done in relation to trail hunting. It is 20 years since the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 was passed by Parliament, and it is clear that there were far too many loopholes, which people have been allowed to exploit for far too long. This bill cannot be a continuation of business as usual; it must close the loopholes that still exist and it must not create new ones.
Amendment 242, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, seeks to alter the definition of the phrase “under control” to include any
“dog ... carrying out an activity for which it has been trained”,
which is quite different from the common understanding of the term. I am concerned that the amendment would change the definition of “control” throughout the entire bill, which would have worrying consequences. For a start, it would allow the dog to be out of sight and hearing, which I think would completely undermine the bill.
I move amendment 113.
Amendment 242 seeks to amend section 22 by adding a phrase that was included in the 2002 act in recognition of the fact that there will be, and will need to be, occasions when trained dogs—that is, working dogs—will be in situations in which it will not be possible to direct their activity by physical contact or by verbal or audible command. I am thinking of, for example, large areas of forestry, certain weather conditions or activities below ground. As they are trained working dogs, that does not mean that they are not “under control”. In addition, the committee also received evidence that, in some situations, it might be important that the person using the dog is not directing them by making a noise or engaging physically, as in the case of a dog below ground. As being “under control” is a key condition throughout the bill for all excepted activity to be lawful, it is essential that it is not defined in a way that could make exceptions unworkable, at least in situations in which the use of dogs is necessary.
I want to explain why I have lodged amendment 244, which seeks to define the term “pack” for the purposes of the bill. Last week, I asked the minister to put on record comments on the types of dogs that work on a rough shoot and on the specific point of dogs forming a pack. She responded by saying:
“for the purposes of the bill, a pack is defined: it is more than two dogs.”
Moreover, she was
“happy to put on the record”
her understanding
“that dogs that are generally used in rough shooting, such as gun dogs, are well trained and do not chase or form packs.”—[Official Report, Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment Committee, 7 December 2022; c 38.]
However, I want to challenge the minister on that point, because I believe that she contradicted herself, hence the need for an amendment to determine the difference between dogs that form a pack, such as hounds, and gun dogs, which, as she clearly stated, do not form a pack. I have therefore lodged amendment 244 to ensure that the Scottish Government clarifies the definition of “pack” and recognises that gun dogs do not form a pack.
I hope that the amendment is helpful to the minister. If the minister would like to work with me on the definition, because she feels that it is an important clarification, I would be very happy to do so.
I support amendments 113 and 124, in the name of Colin Smyth, which seek to exclude relays as well as packs. In England, such practices have been observed being used as a loophole to continue mounted hunts, and it is important that we prevent such a loophole here.
I cannot support amendment 242, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, because its proposed definition of “under control” seems to defy any reasonable understanding of the phrase. I am also not minded to support amendment 244, given that it has been made clear throughout the passage of the bill that the definition of “pack” that we are working with relates to more than two dogs. I would be interested to hear the minister’s response, though.
I support Colin Smyth’s amendments in this group, because it is prudent to require that reasonable steps be taken to ensure that dogs do not form a relay. As he has said, mounted hunts in England have been seen using several pairs of dogs one after the other to chase stags, and these amendments would help avoid similar practices being adopted here by making them an offence.
09:45I do not support Rachael Hamilton’s amendments in the group. Amendment 244 defines the term “pack” in a way that excludes working gun dogs. Gun dogs are, simply, dogs that are trained to retrieve game. Apart from the problem of unambiguously defining what a working gun dog is—whether a dog is a “gun dog” and whether it was “working” at the time that it was hunting a wild mammal—that definition of “pack” would create yet another loophole, as those who are bent on hunting with packs of dogs would simply argue that they were using working gun dogs. To be frank, amendment 244 seems like an 11th-hour attempt to allow hunting with packs of dogs to continue, not in order to protect livestock or the environment but for sport and—
Will you take an intervention?
—for human entertainment. That is unacceptable, and I cannot support amendment 244.
Will you take the intervention?
I have concluded my comments.
You can take an intervention if you want to.
I just want to get your thoughts on the points that were raised last week about rough shooting. You have said that working dogs could be used as a cover for other activities. How, in your belief, could a working gun dog be confused for a lurcher or a hound?
As we discussed last week, and previously during the taking of evidence, loopholes in the 2002 act were uncovered after the fact. I am concerned about allowing any space for any interpretation in any situation. People were very creative in interpreting the 2002 act, and I want to ensure that there are no loopholes in the bill. I believe that amendment 244 would potentially create a loophole.
I have listened carefully to the arguments. I am disappointed that Colin Smyth used the example of stag hunting south of the border. I am sure that he will be well aware that the last deerhound pack was disbanded in about 1920. It was based at Culachy, by Fort Augustus. Deer hunting with dogs is not done in Scotland. What we are talking about is forming a pack or a relay. We can discount stags for the reason that I have given.
I understand why the minister has put this provision in the bill, and I have made it clear that I do not support her on the issue of two dogs. However, as it appears that that will go through, I caution on the use of the word “relay”. If two dogs are following an animal, they cannot run all day, Mr Smyth, in the same way that I cannot run all day—in fact, my endurance and stamina are such that I can run for only short periods of time. Taking those dogs off a scent, and replacing them with dogs that are fresh on the scent, in order to flush the animal out of what may be a large woodland—as we have heard—is the appropriate thing to do. I cannot, therefore, support the amendments. I do not like the original wording in the bill but, if it is to remain, I ask the minister not to support the use of the words “or relay”.
I will begin with Colin Smyth’s amendments 113 and 124, which were just being discussed. I understand why he has lodged those amendments. However, they are not necessary, and they could present practical problems.
The bill states that, unless a licence has been granted, only two dogs can be used to search for, stalk or flush a wild mammal. It is very clear about that. It also clearly sets out that, when a person uses two dogs for that activity, reasonable steps must be taken to shoot the wild mammal or have it killed by a bird of prey as soon as reasonably possible. That is a watertight set of circumstances.
Are you saying that you are confident that the use of a relay—two dogs, followed by two dogs, followed by two dogs—would be caught by the legislation and would not be permissible?
When we use the term “relay”, we probably all have different views of what constitutes a relay. In the context of rough shooting, for example, it is permitted and lawful to use two dogs for the activity, but there could be another two dogs on a lead, or somewhere else, that could be swapped in. Therefore, Edward Mountain’s point about the dogs becoming exhausted in the course of a lawful activity is taken account of.
My point is that nobody should use a relay—albeit it that we do not have a definition of that—in order to deliberately prolong the flushing. The only instances that I have heard of are those that Colin Smyth and Ariane Burgess referred to, which involve a relay—if we can call it that—being used to chase stags or course hares, but—
Will the minister take an intervention on that point?
I will, once I have finished the point. Those activities are already clearly prohibited by the bill.
As I read the bill, it would allow two dogs to be used, and those two dogs to be substituted by another two dogs, and then by another two dogs, potentially while chasing or flushing out the same wild mammal. Is that the case? Are you saying that two dogs cannot be substituted in the same area? That is not my interpretation of the bill.
I do not think that the circumstances that Colin Smyth describes would ever arise. I described circumstances that involved dogs being on a lead, dogs being elsewhere and dogs being held back, which could be used as part of the activity if they were swapped in at a later date. There is no way that that could be done to pursue the same quarry—the same animal. Therefore, flushing could not be prolonged in that way.
As we discussed in the context of rough shooting, a person must only ever control two dogs at one time. There could be two dogs in the back of a Land Rover that could be got for the second half of the day, but it would not be possible for them to be swapped in with such speed that the same quarry could continue to be chased.
For those reasons, I cannot support Colin Smyth’s amendments.
Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 244 seeks to add to the bill a definition of a pack, which it defines as
“a group of two or more dogs trained for hunting, excluding working gun dogs”.
As she said, in previous committee sessions I have sought to make it clear that, for the purposes of the bill, a pack is more than two dogs. That is already explicit in the bill, and I do not think that any further definition is required.
I do not agree that there is a contradiction. The term “pack” means more than two dogs and can apply to any dogs. The issue of consistency of approach throughout the bill is one that we discussed in a lot of detail at the committee’s previous meeting. Therefore, I do not support any attempts to create different rules for different types of dogs. The bill is about regulating the use of all hunting dogs, regardless of the type of hunting that takes place. I have seen no evidence to justify an exception for gun dogs.
I have concerns not only about the substance of amendment 244 but about the way in which it is drafted. I think that Rachael Hamilton probably intended to refer to “more than two dogs” as constituting a pack, but the amendment says “two or more dogs”. In my view, two dogs do not constitute a pack; a pack consists of more than two dogs.
On the exclusion of gun dogs from the definition, it would be very difficult to establish whether a dog was a “working gun dog”. That phrase might be used in ordinary language, but it is not sufficiently clear in legislative terms. The definition risks creating a loophole that would allow people to circumvent the two-dog limit, which is a cornerstone of the bill. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment 244.
Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 242 seeks to amend the definition of “under control” by reinstating wording from the 2002 act, whereby a dog is under control if it
“is carrying out an activity for which it has been trained”.
I think that Rachael Hamilton’s intention is that that would apply to all circumstances in the bill.
One of the key principles in the bill is that, when dogs are used to search for, flush or stalk wild mammals, they must be under control. That is a cornerstone of the bill. The bill sets out that
“a person who is responsible for the dog is able to direct the dog’s activity by physical contact or verbal or audible command”.
At the end of the day, dogs are animals, and even the best-trained dogs will sometimes react in an unexpected way. I do not accept that it is enough to simply rely on a dog to carry out an activity for which it has been trained. That would be the effect of the amendment if it were agreed to. We can imagine that, in extreme circumstances, a dog could be trained for purposes that we would not wish it to carry out. I fear that the amendment would significantly widen the definition of control, which is a key provision of the bill.
I am disappointed that there is no support for amendment 113. The purpose of the bill is to close loopholes that were left open by the Protection of Wild Mammals (Scotland) Act 2002 while avoiding any new loopholes. I believe that there is a potential loophole.
My amendments were designed to ensure that people who are hunting cannot, in effect, use multiple pairs of dogs, one after the other, to chase wild mammals. A relay would be needed only if those dogs were relentlessly pursuing a wild mammal over a long period of time. Excluding the word “relay” leaves that possibility open as a potential loophole that could be exploited.
I am not convinced that a second or a third pair of dogs substituting for the first are not likely to chase the same quarry, and I am unsure how that would be enforced. I am not convinced that a second or a third pair of dogs would not continue in the same area, effectively chasing the same quarry.
I am sure that this is not intentional, but we need to be careful not to use the word “chasing”, as the bill makes it clear that it is unlawful for any dogs to chase or kill a wild mammal. The lawful activity is to flush, so we ought not to refer to chasing.
The minister may not like to refer to chasing, but that is the reality of what we are talking about in relation to the bill. That will happen—there is no question about that. The debate is about a pack of hounds or two dogs, but that is, in effect, what will happen. Whether the dogs are flushing out or chasing, the point has been made several times that two dogs could become exhausted over a period of time. The wild mammal that is being flushed out, chased or whatever could become exhausted, too. There is no animal welfare argument for substituting two dogs.
I do not mean to interrupt, but we need to be absolutely clear. My point in response to Colin Smyth’s amendment was that I agree with him that we cannot have perpetual flushing, but the bill’s provisions—not least the two-dog limit—already account for that. Equally, as one of my colleagues has just pointed out to me, the bill already provides that, once flushed, the wild mammal must be shot or killed as soon as reasonably practical. The circumstances that Colin Smyth is narrating would therefore be unlawful under the bill.
Everything that we have done has been about trying to make those instances clearer to law enforcement officers where they arise and avoiding the difficulties that we had under the 2002 act. A lot of what Colin Smyth is describing is unlawful under the bill. That is why his amendment is not necessary.
That does not change the fundamental point that wild mammals escape. They are not always flushed out immediately, and they often run for cover elsewhere. In effect, what would be allowed to continue would be the perpetual flushing out and chasing of animals over a period of time by allowing two dogs to be substituted.
The only circumstance that I can think of in which two dogs would be substituted would be over a long period of time. There is nothing in my reading of the bill that would not potentially mean that the same wild mammal could, in effect, be pursued by two dogs, a further two dogs and then a further two dogs. There is nothing in the bill that stops that happening, as far as I can tell. The fact that two dogs are seeking to flush out a wild mammal does not mean that the mammal will be successfully shot immediately. Further dogs could be used to continue to flush out that animal.
I think that you are getting confused between hunting and flushing. We are talking about using dogs to flush; we are not talking about hunting. You are giving the illusion that that would take place over miles of countryside. That is not what we are talking about. We are talking about putting dogs into cover to flush out a mammal so that it can be controlled. As Mr Fairlie has made positively clear, in thick cover in perhaps a 200-acre wood, people will probably need to consider replacing a dog as they are trying to flush out a mammal. I think that Mr Smyth is presenting an illusion that misrepresents the bill and what the minister is trying to achieve. However, I am sure that the minister does not need my support to clarify her position.
10:00
Mr Mountain’s comments about large areas of land probably support the point that I am making. He says that people would need more than two dogs over a period of time only in a large area of land, so he is making my argument.
Mr Mountain said in a previous comment that the issue in England is about stags and that we will not have that issue in Scotland. However, it does not matter what the mammal is—the same principle exists. It is crucial that the bill is as effective as possible in ensuring that we do not create new loopholes. I remain unconvinced about the need to use multiple groups of dogs, which is in effect what the bill will allow to continue. I do not understand why, if that is unlikely to be required in a particular area, we would allow it to continue under legislation.
Will the member take an intervention?
I have just finished my comments, but I am happy to take an intervention.
I am honestly not trying to be disrespectful, but the practicalities of what the member is talking about simply do not bear out in reality. The minister has put in place adequate proposals to stop the kind of hunting that we all want to be banned—we do want it to be banned. I am not trying to be rude, but the idea that someone can stop a hunt halfway through, take out two dogs and put in another two is ludicrous. That would just never happen, because the practicalities would not allow it.
That probably backs up my case. If it will not happen, why are you concerned about the bill making it an offence? Mr Fairlie says that we will never get a situation where two dogs will be used and then substituted effectively by another two dogs. I do not agree with him, but, if that is the case, there is no reason at all why we should not close the potential loophole in the bill and make it an offence for that to happen in the first place. Why would you be concerned about that?
Because—no, it does not matter. Okay.
Do you want to press or withdraw the amendment, Mr Smyth?
I will press it.
The question is, that amendment 113 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 113 disagreed to.
Amendment 194, in the name of Beatrice Wishart, is grouped with amendments 195 to 202.
I will speak to amendments 194 to 202, all of which are in my name and which relate to landowner permission. In the bill as drafted, the requirement to get landowner permission for hunting with dogs is unclear to me in situations in which there are joint landowners for one piece of land or where a piece of land is split between multiple landowners. Where the bill currently states
“permission for the activity has been given by the owner of the land”,
my amendments 194, 196, 198, 200 and 201 would add the phrase
“or owners, as the case may be”.
My amendments 195, 197, 199 and 200 would add “avoidance of doubt” clauses that state that, if an activity takes place across land that is under more than one person’s ownership, permission
“must be given by each owner of the land on which the activity will take place.”
Taken together, the amendments capture both situations—joint land ownership and multiple landowners—and make it clear that each landowner must give permission for the activities to take place.
I move amendment 194.
I thank Beatrice Wishart for lodging her amendments, which I am minded to support. From what we have just heard, it sounds as though they will help to clarify the bill. I am interested in hearing whether there is any reason why the minister does not agree with them.
I, too, thank Beatrice Wishart for her explanation of her amendments. I understand why she has lodged them and I support the intention behind them, but my view is that they are unnecessary and they should not be supported in order to avoid any inconsistencies.
I will explain why I do not support the amendments. Section 22 of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010, which applies to the bill, sets out that, when interpreting legislation, we should take it that use of the singular includes the plural, and vice versa. That means that, in relation to the bill and Beatrice Wishart’s point, reference to the “owner” in each of the exceptions can be read as “owner or owners”, depending on the circumstances. There is no need to restate that, and doing so could cast doubt on other uses of the singular throughout the bill, such as references to “wild mammal”, for example. We want consistency in any singular including the plural, and vice versa.
I hope that that reassures Beatrice Wishart and Mercedes Villalba. The effects of the amendments are already built in, and any exception that was made in these circumstances could cast doubt on other references throughout the bill.
I understand what you have said about the singular including the plural as a default, minister. That relates to half of the intention of the amendments in the group, but the other half relates to the “avoidance of doubt” clauses to ensure that permission is sought for each owner of each section of land. I am not sure that that point has been addressed by your comments about the singular including the plural.
I apologise. I did not refer to that specifically because my point is that, given that the singular includes the plural, we do not need the “avoidance of doubt” clauses.
I thank the minister for her explanation. When I raised the issue, she took time to meet me to discuss it, and I am grateful for her explanation. Given what she has said, I am happy to seek to withdraw amendment 194.
Amendment 194, by agreement, withdrawn.
Amendment 70 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 70 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 70 disagreed to.
Amendment 114 moved—[Colin Smyth].
The question is, that amendment 114 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 114 disagreed to.
I remind members that, if amendment 140 is agreed to, I will be unable to call amendments 115 and 203 because of pre-emption.
Amendment 140 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 140 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 140 disagreed to.
Does Colin Smyth wish to move amendment 115?
In light of the minister’s comments on discussing the wording of amendments 115, 121, 126 and 129, I am happy not to move amendment 115.
Amendment 115 not moved.
Amendment 203 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 203 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 203 disagreed to.
Amendment 71 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 71 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 71 disagreed to.
Amendment 36 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 36 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 36 disagreed to.
Amendment 195 not moved.
Section 3 agreed to.
Section 4—Licence for use of more than two dogs in connection with section 3
Amendment 21 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 21 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (SNP) (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 3, Against 6, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 21 disagreed to.
Amendment 191 moved—[Jim Fairlie].
The question is, that amendment 191 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (SNP) (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Against
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Abstentions
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 6, Against 1, Abstentions 2.
Amendment 191 agreed to.
Amendment 72 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 72 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 72 disagreed to.
10:15
I remind members that, if amendment 156 is agreed to, I will be unable to call amendment 204 because of pre-emption.
Amendment 156 not moved.
Amendment 204 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 204 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 204 disagreed to.
Amendment 205 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 205 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Abstentions
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 6, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 205 disagreed to.
Amendment 22 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 22 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Abstentions
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 6, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 22 disagreed to.
I remind members that, if amendment 206 is agreed to, I will be unable to call amendment 23 because of pre-emption.
Amendment 206 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 206 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 206 disagreed to.
Amendment 23 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 23 disagreed to.
Amendment 157 moved—[Jim Fairlie].
The question is, that amendment 157 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Against
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Abstentions
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 5, Against 1, Abstentions 3.
Amendment 157 agreed to.
Amendment 116 moved—[Colin Smyth].
The question is, that amendment 116 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 116 disagreed to.
Amendment 207 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 207 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 207 disagreed to.
Amendment 243, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, is in a group on its own. I remind members that, if amendment 243 is agreed to, I cannot call amendments 208 and 158, which have already been debated in the licensing group, due to pre-emption. I call Rachael Hamilton to speak to and move amendment 243.
Amendment 243 would extend the period of time in which a 14-day licence could be used from 14 days to six months from the date on which the licence was granted. I listened to the minister’s comments on my previous amendments in relation to the extension of the duration of time in which a 14-day licence could be used, and the amendment reflects some of the comments that were made and revises the period down from 12 months to six months.
To reiterate what I said previously about extending the period of time in which a licence can be used, it is important to acknowledge that the control of wild mammals is preventative and not simply a reactive method or a response to damage having been suffered. We must recognise that fox control is a year-round activity and that it is conducted using a variety of methods depending on factors such as the terrain and the time of year. Farming is not simply a hobby; it is a business that manages land and produces food. Much has been made of allowing businesses to carry out their role without overly bureaucratic diktat from pen pushers, ensuring that they can operate in as practical a way as possible.
I move amendment 243.
As no members wish to speak, I call the minister.
I am not sure that “bureaucratic diktat from pen pushers” is a reasonable way to describe the work of NatureScot and others, but I will leave that up to the member. Rachael Hamilton will probably not be surprised by my view on this, given that we debated the amendment that I lodged in the previous session. I said then that I had listened very carefully to the discussions on the licensing period during the committee’s scrutiny.
When I spoke to amendment 158 last week, I said that I had come to the conclusion that allowing some flexibility around the period of time in which the licence’s 14 days may be used was justified. That is why I lodged amendment 158—which, to remind the committee, would see the period of time for which a licence can be granted under section 4 be the original maximum 14 days, but within a period of six consecutive months.
Of course, I have considered Rachael Hamilton’s amendment 243, which would allow the licence to be granted for up to 28 days over six months, but I remain very much of the view that 14 days is the right number for the licence to cover. It allows sufficient flexibility to deal with changes to plans due to bad weather or other unforeseen events while not facilitating any more days of hunting over the period. Having spoken widely with stakeholders, I believe that 14 days is sufficient for the licensed predator control needs of most farms and that 28 days allows too many days of activity under a particular licence, given the very real need to maintain a tight control.
Thank you, minister. I ask Rachael Hamilton to wind up and press or withdraw amendment 243.
As it stands, I believe that the bill limits the environmental benefit exception to situations in which the use of dogs—whether two dogs or more than two dogs under licence—is “part of a scheme”. It seems unnecessarily burdensome, given that land managers often undertake pest control to protect and enhance wildlife. I have no idea why they should have to come up with a scheme. The bill does not define what amounts to a scheme; it is not clear from the evidence sessions or from the documents accompanying the bill, but a scheme is currently conceived of in terms of the work of NatureScot, RSPB Scotland and other large bodies.
I am still concerned about the idea of a scheme. Most managers have a land management plan—is that a scheme? If they wish to use more than two dogs, what amounts to such a scheme? In terms of a licence for environmental benefit, surely it is sufficient that NatureScot should be happy that the use of more than two dogs is necessary and will make a significant contribution to environmental benefit.
With regard to the loss of biodiversity, it is strange that we would want anyone to discourage wildlife management that assists in nature recovery or to limit it to statutory bodies and charities when the vast majority of land is held and managed privately. If ministers are serious about reversing biodiversity loss and saving species such as the curlew and capercaillie, we must work with land managers, not against them, to ensure that, in such situations, livelihoods are protected and wildlife is managed in order to protect livestock.
I press amendment 243.
The question is, that amendment 243 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 243 disagreed to.
Amendment 208, in the name of Rachael Hamilton, has been debated with amendment 9. I remind members that, if amendment 208 is agreed to, I cannot call amendment 158 due to pre-emption.
Amendment 208 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 208 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 208 disagreed to.
Amendment 158 moved—[Màiri McAllan]—and agreed to.
Amendment 24 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
We missed the vote there. I will call the vote again. We are on amendment 24. Those supporting the amendment, please raise your hand now. Those voting against, please raise your hands now. Those members abstaining, please indicate now. [Laughter.]
Members, I would really appreciate it if you could make your votes as clear as possible.
I am sorry, convener—I got in a muddle. I thought that we were still on amendment 158. I realise that it is probably too late to change my vote, but can I just note that I would have opposed amendment 24?
Your comments will appear in the Official Report.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 24 disagreed to.
Amendment 209 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 209 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 209 disagreed to.
10:30
Convener, I wish to put on the record that, on amendment 158, I would have voted no.
Amendment 159 not moved.
Amendment 210 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 210 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 210 disagreed to.
Amendment 160 moved—[Jim Fairlie].
The question is, that amendment 160 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Abstentions
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 6, Against 0, Abstentions 3.
Amendment 160 agreed to.
Amendment 211 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 211 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 211 disagreed to.
Amendment 161 not moved.
Amendment 25 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 25 disagreed to.
Amendment 12 moved—[Ariane Burgess].
The question is, that amendment 12 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 12 disagreed to.
Section 4, as amended, agreed to.
Section 5—Exception: management of foxes and mink below ground
Amendment 73 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 73 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 73 disagreed to.
Amendment 74 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 74 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 74 disagreed to.
Amendment 75 not moved.
I have not moved amendment 75 on the basis that I am not sure that my definition of a polecat meets the requirements. So, I am not going to move any of my amendments that relate to polecats.
Amendment 76 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 76 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 76 disagreed to.
Amendment 162 moved—[Jenni Minto].
The question is, that amendment 162 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 6, Against 3, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 162 agreed to.
Amendment 212 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 212 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 212 disagreed to.
Amendment 213 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 213 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 213 disagreed to.
Amendments 77 to 80 not moved.
Amendment 163 moved—[Jenni Minto].
The question is, that amendment 163 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 6, Against 3, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 163 agreed to.
Amendment 214 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 214 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 214 disagreed to.
Amendment 215 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 215 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 215 disagreed to.
I call amendment 117, in the name of Colin Smyth, which has already been debated with amendment 1.
In the light of the comments regarding the consistency of language and the use of the word “immediately” as opposed to, for example,
“as soon as reasonably possible”,
I will not move amendment 117 but might bring back an amendment at stage 3, because that point in the bill would benefit from clarity.
Amendment 117 not moved.
Amendment 118 not moved.
Amendment 81 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 81 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 81 disagreed to.
Amendment 82 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 82 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 82 disagreed to.
Amendment 83, the name of Edward Mountain, has already been debated with amendment 1.
As amendment 83 refers to a polecat, I will not move it.
Amendment 83 not moved.
Amendment 84 moved—[Edward Mountain].
The question is, that amendment 84 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 84 disagreed to.
Amendment 164 moved—[Jenni Minto].
The question is, that amendment 164 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Against
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 6, Against 3, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 164 agreed to.
Amendment 216 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 216 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 216 disagreed to.
10:45Amendment 26 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 26 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)
The result of the division is: For 2, Against 7, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 26 disagreed to.
Amendment 217 moved—[Rachael Hamilton].
The question is, that amendment 217 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Against
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Wishart, Beatrice (Shetland Islands) (LD)