Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee

Meeting date: Wednesday, March 18, 2020

Official Report 542KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

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National Bus Travel Concession Scheme for Older and Disabled Persons (Scotland) Amendment Order 2020 [Draft]

Good morning, and welcome to the committee’s 10th meeting in 2020. I ask everyone to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent. Peter Chapman, Mike Rumbles, Stewart Stevenson and Rachael Hamilton have submitted apologies. I should also say that our agenda has changed from what was originally published. The planned evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity on the national transport strategy and the transport update have been deferred and will be rescheduled at a later date. However, the cabinet secretary has agreed to provide a short statement on the resilience of transport services and networks in Scotland during the current Covid-19 outbreak, and we will come to that later.

Agenda item 1 is subordinate legislation. We will consider one affirmative instrument: the National Bus Travel Concession Scheme for Older and Disabled Persons (Scotland) Amendment Order 2020. The committee will take evidence from Michael Matheson, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity. The motion seeking the approval of the affirmative instrument will be considered under agenda item 2.

Members should note that there have been no representations to the committee on the instrument. Before I welcome the cabinet secretary and officials from the Scottish Government, do any members wish to declare an interest?

I declare an interest as the holder of a concessionary bus pass.

Like John Finnie, I also declare that I am the holder of a national concessionary bus pass.

Thank you very much. I do not know why I looked around the room to see if anyone else should be owning up—I apologise to people for that.

I welcome Michael Matheson, the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity. He is accompanied by Scottish Government officials Tom Davy, head of bus strategy and concessions policy; and John Finlay, scheme business manager. I invite the cabinet secretary to make a brief opening statement.

As you will be aware, setting the overall budget for the concessionary travel scheme is an annual process. Since last year, we have undertaken a considerable degree of engagement with the bus industry to identify ways in which we can strengthen the process for modelling the future financial demands that might come from the national concessionary travel scheme.

As members will see, the draft Scottish statutory instrument provides a reimbursement rate of £226.1 million for 2020-21. The figure was arrived at through considerable analytical work in which we looked at the economic model to identify potential demand in the year ahead. We arrived at the figure in agreement with the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, which represents the bus industry and, therefore, 80 per cent of those who participate in the national concessionary travel scheme.

I seek your views on the section on impact assessments. I note that there has been some helpful feedback from users of the scheme about its social and health benefits. Are your colleagues in other portfolios aware of those benefits? For example, the issue of social isolation might be very much in focus right now, but the Scottish Government was already aware of it.

It might not have been the original purpose for which the scheme was designed, but it has been a by-product that has been a major benefit for those who can make use of it. From discussions with colleagues in other parts of Government, I have no doubt that there is a wider recognition of the benefits that come from the national concessionary travel scheme. Other than tackling social isolation, there are wider social benefits that come from being able to move around more freely because travel is free of charge, and health benefits are accrued from that. There is a growing wider recognition of the additional benefits that come from the scheme.

I am sure that I am not the only MSP who regularly gets correspondence from older constituents who complain that it says on their bus tickets that they are going to the terminus or into the next fare stage. They are of the view that the bus companies are, if not defrauding the Government, trying it on. What evidence do you have that most bus companies are playing by the rules? If they are not, what sanctions are available?

If any user of the scheme is concerned that an operator might be misusing it in some way, there is a process for them to report that through Transport Scotland. John Finlay can say a bit more about the process, which I encourage people to use.

We have an auditing process. We have people who make use of the services to check that companies are using the scheme appropriately and that they are not issuing tickets to destinations to which people are not going. If we identify any issues that are a matter of concern to us, there is a process for those to be escalated with the service provider and, ultimately, for action to be taken against them.

If there is a fraud issue, that is potentially a criminal matter and, should there be evidence that the scheme was being defrauded by an operator, I would not hesitate to ensure that that was reported to the appropriate authorities to be investigated as a criminal matter.

John Finlay can explain a bit more about the process for anyone who has concerns.

At Transport Scotland, we have a dedicated 24-hour freephone number for anyone to use if they wish to report any aspect of misuse of the concessionary travel scheme. Our staff look into every case that is reported to us.

You mentioned overstaging. According to staff in our operational delivery unit, the number of inquiries about that from MSPs or members of the public seems to have decreased since this time last year. Something that may have prompted people to report it was that First in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen had changed the fare structure so that, rather than various fares, there were two fares. Depending on where somebody is travelling to, the drivers normally record the final destination in that particular fare stage, although the fare does not change. For example, when someone boards at point A and is going to point D, the ticket will show point G if that is the end of the fare stage. Although it might seem to someone that a driver is recording a longer journey, the fare is exactly the same.

In the past three to five months, we have been working a lot with First Glasgow, which has produced credit card-sized cards to give to members of the public, to explain the fare structure. We also have regular, three-monthly meetings with the commercial director of FirstGroup, to look at any complaints that we have received. We can see that the number of those complaints is decreasing slightly.

First is also doing more on driver awareness, so that, if a member of the public asks a driver a question, the driver is able to explain things a lot better than they could perhaps have done a year ago.

The raising of issues is on the decrease, but our staff look into all queries and any issues that have been identified, and we have powers to take those to the procurator fiscal if and when it is necessary. In recent years, we have reported some drivers to the procurator fiscal, and they have ended up in court. We take it seriously, and will continue to do so.

What you have said has been very helpful—not just to me but, I am sure, to other MSPs as well.

Do you advertise that helpline and the associated process anywhere, so that people are aware of it?

We have published the freephone number on the Transport Scotland website. We have issued posters to local authorities for bus stops and local authority offices. It is well publicised.

Thank you; that signposting is useful.

Because of the Covid-19 crisis, most elderly people will be staying at home and not using their entitlement card at present.

My view is that we do not promote the scheme enough. What are the benefits to users of the scheme, and are there any drawbacks? How far can they travel in Scotland, using the scheme?

The obvious benefit is the free travel which they are able to make use of, across different operators in Scotland. John Finlay can give you more specific information about the national picture overall but we are seeing a year-on-year increase in the number of people who are making use of the national concession scheme. That can be seen from the cost increases which are associated with the annual Scottish statutory instrument, most of which are associated with the increased number of people using the scheme. It is very successful.

I note that you would like people to make greater use of the scheme. Often, people ask me why we are giving free concessionary travel to people who can afford the bus fare. The reality is that it does not cost us anything if someone does not make use of it. Very often, people who can afford the fare would not make use of the scheme anyway, or even hold a card.

I have used mine about twice in five years.

There is a benefit in the social mobility that the scheme provides for people who can travel free on public transport buses. As I mentioned to John Finnie, that tackles issues to do with social isolation and brings wider health benefits from people being out and about, rather than not being able to use public transport. It also provides a benefit to the bus service industry, which keeps a significant number of people in employment. Therefore, the concessionary travel scheme has a wider benefit to our economy. John, do you want to say more on the national picture?

10:15  

Although not all of them use the scheme, there are now approximately 1.4 million card holders. Year on year, that figure has increased; in 2018-19, more than 143 million journeys were taken under the concessionary travel scheme, which equates to approximately two fifths of the total number of bus journeys in Scotland. Anyone who has a card can travel anywhere in Scotland and down to the border.

So they can go from Carlisle to John O’Groats for nothing.

Yes, they can go for free on the bus. Some people who qualify for cards on the grounds of disability have a companion card, so that a companion can travel with them for free on the bus.

And that would be the case even if I used three or four bus companies. What time can people start to travel in the morning?

There is no time restriction.

I have a couple of questions.

Mr Lyle, I am concerned that you are using Government time to work out your travel plans across Scotland. [Laughter.]

Everyone here knows that I am retiring next year, and I am planning my future journeys. However, in all honesty, I want to promote the scheme to the people of Scotland and, because I have used it only a couple of times, I would like to know the benefits. Are there any drawbacks to the scheme?

I would not say that there are drawbacks; the only restrictions are that you would not be able to use your card on the open-top tour buses or on services that charge a premium fare, such as some services that operate in the middle of the night. However, there are no peak-time restrictions and you can travel anywhere in Scotland.

Good morning, everybody. I will pick up on what Mr Lyle said about promoting the scheme. There have been lots of discussions and debates in relation to older persons’ fitness to drive. We need to promote the scheme for many people but, based on demographic trends, the projected number of persons that will qualify will increase year on year. I assume that you will be constantly looking at those numbers, making projections and adjusting what the scheme would cost.

The free concessionary travel scheme is well known and recognised. On a number of occasions, individual constituents, who are due to qualify for it on reaching the age of 60, have said to me, “Is it at 60 or 65 that I get it?” They are thinking ahead about when they will get their free concessionary travel card. We should make sure that we promote it in a reasonable way, but it is an established part of people’s wider understanding of the benefits that they get when they reach the age of 60.

Given our demographics, we are expecting the number of people who qualify for the scheme to increase. The economic model that we use to set the figures each year takes that into account; it looks at where the demographics are going and the number of people who are likely to qualify for it over the course of the year, and it looks at the average amount of time that they might make use of the card in the year, to give us as accurate a figure as possible for the increase in demand that we might experience in the year ahead.

As well as the increase in the number of people who qualify for the scheme, there has been greater use of the card. Rather than just one local journey, people are taking longer journeys to visit other parts of the country. There is ever-increasing use of the card as well as increasing numbers of people who qualify for the national concessionary travel scheme. That all places a financial demand on the scheme, but it has wider benefits from people moving around, travelling and visiting and the wider health benefits that I mentioned earlier.

I am curious about an issue that one of my constituents has raised. Some bus companies can opt out of the scheme; I am referring particularly to companies that run coach services that are often used by people to travel from one part of Dumfries and Galloway to another, even if that bus then goes to Belfast via the ferry. What criteria have been set to ensure that bus companies use the scheme? Surely a company that gets a bus service operators grant should have to opt in to the scheme.

There is a provision for operators that choose to remove themselves from the scheme. Additional powers of ministerial direction mean that a company can be directed to be part of the scheme where that is deemed to be necessary. Coach operators can be different from bus operators, as they may be offering a type of coach service that would not be captured by the scheme because it is bus operators who provide public bus services.

Under that provision in the scheme, a bus operator can exercise their right to come out of the scheme, but ministers can use powers of direction if they wish an operator to remain in the scheme.

What would the criteria be for you as the minister to instruct a company to do that? For example, what would you do if a company is a coach operator but people use it as a bus service across a wide rural region?

Do you mean the criteria to prevent the operator from coming out of the scheme?

Or to insist that they go into the scheme, because they have already opted out.

Tom Davy will be able to say a bit more about coming into the scheme and compulsion once an operator is in. It would concern such matters as why they want to withdraw from the scheme, the impact that it could have on people who make use of the existing scheme and whether we consider it is a reasonable action for them to take.

More than 200 bus operators in Scotland are in the scheme. If a company is looking to close down its business in the next year or so, it could be a reasonable measure to start moving out of the scheme. However, because of the benefits for wider society, we would take a robust view if a major operator considered coming out of the scheme simply because it no longer wanted to participate in it.

I will be honest with Mr Smyth—I do not want to be in that position. I am much more inclined to engage with the sector to try to meet any of the challenges or issues that operators may have. Tom Davy can say something about how operators come into the scheme.

In essence, the policy of the scheme applies to bus services in Scotland. We expect those bus services to join the scheme; as far as we are aware, they have all done so.

There is confusion or a grey area around when a bus service becomes a coach service. The definition of a bus service is linked to factors such as how close together the stops are and whether it is possible for passengers to board within a certain distance from a previous stop and to board the vehicle and pay there and then for the journey. Those factors distinguish the service from a pure coach service, when a person may be carried a longish distance with no intermediate stops and people may need to book in advance and not have the option to board there and then. They may pay for a bundle of services, not just the transport element.

I do not want to go into too much detail, because I would have to check the details if you wanted to pursue that. However, essentially, if you operate a bus service, you will be part of the scheme, and we would expect that. The scheme provides for a bus operator to apply to withdraw. If they were to do so, as the cabinet secretary said, ministers have powers to require them to remain in the scheme. There is an as yet untested appeals process, in which an independent panel would determine whether the operator would be permitted to withdraw. That is untested, and there are not a lot of criteria—if any—in the legislation.

The general policy is that,if you are running a bus service, we would like you to be in the scheme: we would resist any efforts to leave unless there were special circumstances, and I am not sure what those would look like.

When the scheme started, there was a 73.6 per cent reimbursement rate for use. We are now down to about 56.5 per cent; it has been about 56 per cent to 60 per cent for a few years. I understand that you set the amount of money that you need to reach a reimbursement rate. If bus use went up, you would have to increase the budget in order to reach that 56 per cent reimbursement rate. If bus use went down, that would reduce the pull on that budget. Is that right?

If the number of journeys increases beyond what we have modelled for in the year ahead, that might take the cost above the cap that has been set. In the forthcoming financial year, that has been set at £226 million. If the modelling is correct, the amount should be within the capped limit. If there is a reduction, the £226 million that has been set in that budget area would not be reached. Demand determines what the final figure looks like.

Let me check that I understand. If use comes down this year, would you still aim for a reimbursement rate of about 56 per cent, and therefore have a saving in the money that has been allocated, or would you use all the money and accept a higher reimbursement rate?

The reimbursement rate does not change. The rate is 55.9 per cent this year, and it remains the same no matter what. How far we go into the £226 million budget that has been set aside depends on the number of journeys that are made under the scheme.

So the reimbursement rate is the driver.

Yes.

As there are no other questions we will move to item 2, which is consideration of motion S5M-20928, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity.

Motion moved

That the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee recommends that the National Bus Travel Concession Scheme for Older and Disabled Persons (Scotland) Amendment Order 2020 be approved.—[Michael Matheson]

We have heard today how excellent the scheme is and what its advantages are. I am sure that, after the current crisis, folk will go back to using buses as they did before. I recommend that we agree to the proposal.

Motion agreed to.

10:29 Meeting suspended.  

10:31 On resuming—  

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Marketing of Fruit Plant and Propagating Material (Scotland) Amendment Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/34)

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Scottish Road Works Register (Prescribed Fees) Regulations 2020 (SSI 2020/35)

The next item is consideration of two instruments that are subject to the negative procedure, as detailed in the agenda. I remind members that no motions to annul have been lodged, or representations received, in relation to the instruments. Do members agree that the committee does not wish to make any recommendation in relation to the instruments?

Members indicated agreement.