Local Government and Communities Committee

Meeting date: Wednesday, February 22, 2017

Official Report 668KB pdf

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“Draft Climate Change Plan: The draft third report on policies and proposals 2017-2032”

A little bit later than scheduled, we move to agenda item 5, which is evidence from the Minister for Local Government and Housing on the Scottish Government’s draft climate change plan, RPP3—the third report on proposals and policies. It follows two evidence sessions with key stakeholders at our two previous meetings. I welcome Kevin Stewart, the Minister for Local Government and Housing, and the Scottish Government officials who join him today. They are Stephen Garland, head of the sustainable housing unit in the better homes division, and Gareth Fenney, who is a policy manager in the same unit. Do you have an opening statement, minister?

Yes, convener. Thank you for inviting me here today to talk about the draft climate change plan, which sets out the Scottish Government’s policies and proposals for meeting Scotland’s climate change targets.

My portfolio includes responsibility for domestic energy efficiency in all tenures, for local government, for planning and for standards for new buildings. Mr Wheelhouse’s portfolio leads on renewable and low-carbon heat. However, it is important to see energy efficiency and low-carbon heat as a single package, which is why we have brought the action together under Scotland’s energy efficiency programme.

Climate change is one of the most important issues that the world faces today. The Parliament voted unanimously to pass the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009 and, since 2009, we have been working together to reduce emissions and to meet the very challenging targets that are set by the act.

We are making good progress. We have already massively reduced emissions in Scotland—they are down 45.8 per cent since 1990. That progress is reflected in the residential sector, where the share of homes with the top three energy efficiency ratings—energy performance certificate band C or better—has increased by 74 per cent since 2010.

Since 2009, we have allocated more than £650 million to domestic energy efficiency, and we set out in the programme for government that we will make available £0.5 billion over the next four years to tackle fuel poverty and improve energy efficiency.

As we go forward, Scotland’s energy efficiency programme—SEEP—will be the cornerstone of our approach to reducing emissions in the residential sector. Once fully operational, it will be a programme of sticks and carrots, bringing together grants and loans with advice and information, backed up by standards and regulation to help to create demand and drive improvement. The programme is being developed, and we are consulting on policy options until 30 May.

In addition, on a visit to Dalmarnock last week, the First Minister announced that we are making available a further £11 million of funding for councils to make homes, public buildings and businesses more energy efficient. The second wave of the SEEP pilot fund will help local authorities test new and innovative energy-saving approaches.

The consultation and the pilots will inform our long-term approach to the delivery of SEEP, which will commence in 2018.

I welcome the committee’s scrutiny of the draft climate change plan and look forward to members’ questions.

Thank you, minister. Our opening question is from Graham Simpson.

Thank you for attending, minister. We have had a number of submissions and heard from witnesses last week about the perceived—well, not even perceived—lack of actual policy in the climate change plan. The plan has emissions reducing at twice the current rate over the next four years, but there does not seem to be any new policy or money to deliver that reduction. To me, that does not seem to stack up. Will you introduce new policy or funding, or will we just make do with existing policy?

As I said in my opening remarks, we are currently looking at the situation. Beyond that, in very short course—next month—we will embark on a consultation on how to deal with energy efficiency in the private rented sector. That will also outline what we are going to do in terms of owner-occupied properties.

For real transformation, we need to integrate tools such as the use of new incentives, with standards and regulation. Probably the most important thing is behavioural change, supported with advice and information services and underpinned by strong supply chains with the right skills. We are about to embark on decarbonising Scotland’s housing stock, and the cornerstone is Scotland’s energy efficiency programme. We have set out the strategic vision for SEEP: that Scotland’s buildings are near zero carbon by 2050. We want to ensure that that is dealt with and achieved in a way that is socially and economically sustainable, and we have adopted the challenging policy objectives that are set out in the climate change plan. We recognise that those are, without doubt, challenging targets, and we have been very clear that we do not have a preferred option at this stage. The approach will likely vary across elements of the programme. We are, therefore, now asking stakeholders what the best way is to deliver the vision and the objectives. While we develop SEEP, our existing programmes will continue to deliver measures on the ground to help folks make their homes warmer and cheaper to heat.

11:30  

That kind of backs up what I was saying, which is that although the document is called a plan, it is really a vision. A plan would be backed up by specific actions that would enable us to get to the targets that have been set, such as the desire for buildings to be almost zero emitters of carbon, but you have not said how you think that that could be achieved.

I reiterate that a number of activities on energy efficiency are under way right across Scotland, and I encourage the committee to go and see some of the work that is being done on the ground, whether that be the delivery of home energy efficiency programmes for Scotland at a local level or the work that warmer homes Scotland is undertaking.

A key factor to bear in mind is that it would be a mistake for the plan to rush to a single solution, or a limited number of solutions, at this point in time, because technologies will change as we progress. As we embark on this journey, we are taking an extremely pragmatic approach. We will continue with the existing energy efficiency programmes, which have already resulted in a huge number of interventions in homes across Scotland. Although some interventions have been made in private housing, the roll-out of energy efficiency as a whole has been concentrated largely in the social sector. We want to make sure that we get the private rented sector scenario right. That is why we are about to engage in the consultation on that, after which we will move on to deal with owner-occupiers.

It would be very wrong of us to lay out a complete plan of every action that is likely to be taken in the next couple of decades, given the changes in technology that are taking place. Rushing into one technology change would be completely the wrong thing to do. I think that we are taking a pragmatic approach that involves the application of logic and common sense. We want to ensure that we consult all stakeholders so that we can make the plan’s ambitious targets a reality.

Have you finished your questions for the time being, Mr Simpson?

Absolutely. There are other specific areas that we will delve into.

I reassure the minister that the committee has been out and about across the country looking at various initiatives. Let me give a good example of a biofuel community heating solution in Glasgow that I went to see. The people at Cube Housing Association told me that the lifespan of that solution was 15 years or so. When I asked them about using rental income to sustain its replacement in 15 years’ time, they made the point that they had no idea what the technology would look like then. They said that they had to be flexible in their approach to the future.

I know that we are tight for time, but this might be an opportune point for Graham Simpson to say a few words about the visit that he made.

Andy Wightman and I went on a visit to Ayr, where we saw one of the area-based schemes. Basically, insulation is being applied to the outside of buildings. It was a highly informative visit. I had not realised how many buildings in Scotland require such treatment—I think that the figure is about 500,000, which is a massive number. It was good to see that. Area-based schemes are the way forward.

We will certainly come on to the details of that.

Convener, can I just come back in?

Can we just leave that hanging? You mentioned that the committee should go out and about and see what is happening in the country, and I wanted to reassure you that we are actually doing that.

We will move on to the next question, which is from Ruth Maguire.

Good morning, minister. In its written submission to the committee, Food for Life Scotland highlighted the role that local government procurement can play in supporting low-carbon food systems. To what extent does the Scottish Government expect the public sector to maximise opportunities to reduce climate emissions as part of procurement?

To hark back a little to my time in local government, when Aberdeen city and shire established a joint procurement unit, there was a great fear from many folks that the emphasis would be on buying the cheapest possible product from wherever, but a real bit of common sense came into play. Local suppliers are key. Many local authorities, including in Ayrshire, if I remember rightly, are careful about that and procure food from local sources. Although it is not for me to dictate, it would be wise for every local authority to look carefully at where it sources such products.

Beyond that, in terms of some of the recent policy that the Government has put forward, the committee will be well aware of the emphasis that was put on allotments in the Community Empowerment (Scotland) Bill—the issue took up an entire section of that bill, and there was probably more debate about aspects of that than there was about many other aspects of the bill. The conversations that were had then were not only about allotments but about sourcing food from local sources in general. That is a really good thing.

I encourage local authorities to look at the procurement best practice that is out there in certain places, and I will certainly do everything possible to facilitate the exporting of information about that best practice.

Obviously, you cannot compel local authorities to follow best practice, but is there procurement guidance to ensure that, if local authorities follow that guidance closely, the output will be best practice anyway, even if they are not compelled to follow it?

On energy efficiency, in March 2016, the Government launched the non-domestic energy efficiency framework, which is designed to support public and third sector organisations to procure things such as the retrofit work that Mr Simpson and Mr Wightman saw in Ayr. The economies of scale and the standardised approach that are offered by that pan-public sector framework are attractive to the public and private sectors and offer better solutions and better value for money.

I have seen on the ground that, in the initial stages of procurement of energy efficiency measures, some local authorities have found it difficult to find contractors. For example, Orkney had great difficulty bringing in folk to deal with external cladding.

Government has been pretty flexible about that. Normally, if the money is not spent, it is clawed back, but we recognised the circumstances and allowed those councils to keep the money that was available to them. They eventually managed to find contractors and, of course, are building up local skills to continue their projects.

We have a framework, but we have to allow a level of flexibility. We understand that, although it might be easy to get workers and contractors to do certain things in certain parts of the country, it is not so easy to do so in other areas. There are also huge opportunities, because the framework offers the possibility of skills levels being raised in places where that has not happened before.

It might help the committee if you could write to us about that. You said that you have a desire to see best practice, so how do you promote the exchange of information on that best practice between local authorities, and what part does guidance and the ability to improve or enhance it play within that? It would be helpful for the committee to hear about that.

Some concern has been expressed about the lack of engagement with communities during the development of the draft plan. How will the Scottish Government develop further engagement with communities as the plan is finalised?

I am not trying to be awkward, but could Alexander Stewart give us examples of where he thinks engagement has not been at its best?

As other committee members have, I have been on visits; there are projects that we can all visit to see what happens. There are locations and organisations across Scotland that we might have expected to be part of the process that have not perhaps engaged—there is a feeling that that has been lacking. We have an opportunity before the draft plan becomes the final plan to go back and engage with some of those organisations. We have also heard evidence from individuals who felt that they have not been engaged. There is a feeling that there has not been enough done so far, and that needs to be developed as we go forward.

Mr Stewart, the briefing that the Scottish Parliament information centre prepared for today’s evidence session says:

“In their written submission to the LGC Committee the Scottish Community Alliance highlighted their concerns at the limited community engagement in developing the plan:

‘To date, active engagement with communities on this agenda has been limited. We see this as a missed opportunity to capture the energy, enthusiasm and ingenuity that is inherent in all of the places we live.’”

That is only one submission, minister, but it is an example.

I am sorry to have interrupted you, Mr Stewart.

That is okay.

I am keen, as is the Government, to consult as much as possible and to hear what communities and stakeholders have to say. As I said earlier, one of the things that we will have to do is ensure that there is massive behavioural change out there. To facilitate that, we will have to have as much communication as possible with everyone about this extremely important agenda.

I will have a look at what those folks have said. However, a number of things are going on at the moment, even down to household level, at which we are funding the home energy Scotland network, which provides advice and support to households, including about energy-saving behaviours.

11:45  

I have gone out a fair bit to look at what is going on on the ground and to hear what folks are saying, and I think that that is helping. We all have a job to do in relation to that behavioural change. We are also running a pilot with the Energy Saving Trust to find new ways of embedding that behavioural change, which is extremely important. However, I will take on board what Alexander Stewart said: I will have a look at what communication is going on and at how we are dealing with that.

One of the key things is that, as always, it is the job of all of us in this place and beyond to try to persuade folk to respond to consultations. I know that they are sometimes not the easiest documents to deal with, but the online consultations that we have been carrying out on various subjects in recent years are quite easy to navigate. We should probably say more that folk do not have to answer every question and that, if something is not mentioned, they can still have their say on it.

We held stakeholder events before Christmas on the draft plan and on SEEP 2. I will see who attended those and will consider what we can do to encourage more people to become involved. It is vital that we get as many folk as possible—all the folk out there, in fact—involved in the agenda so that we can move forward with the ambitious plan and get the behavioural change that we need.

Thank you.

Elaine Smith has a supplementary question. I will then bring in Andy Wightman.

Welcome to the committee, minister. You mentioned individual actions. We have a submission from Smart Energy GB about smart meters. I wonder whether this is an appropriate point for you to say something about that. My further question is that I recall reading—[Interruption.]

Is this someone else’s question?

No. Please continue, deputy convener.

I thought that I had stolen someone’s question.

I read somewhere about a seven-year window of opportunity for changing boilers. Does that mean that households have to replace their boilers and, if so, what are the incentives for them to do that? Those are specific questions, but they are about the individual actions that you mentioned when you responded on communities.

If you do not mind, convener, I will bring in Mr Garland to comment on smart meters.

I will see what I can do. There is definitely an opportunity with the roll-out of smart meters. Given that there are going to be interventions and people will be going to every home, there is an opportunity to link that to the work that we are doing on energy efficiency and, more widely, on climate change. We are considering what that opportunity is. The energy companies are dealing with smart meters at different rates, but the Government is aware of the issue. Mr Wheelhouse has looked into it and discussed it with the energy companies. I do not have specific details of what is planned, but it is on our agenda.

I am not so sure about a seven-year window for boilers, I am afraid.

I will deal with that. We have to recognise that our future energy mix will likely be different from what we are familiar with today. Working with partners, we will consider what the most appropriate solution is. It will include district heating, electric heat pumps, biomass and repurposing of the gas network to supply biogas or hydrogen. We will put forward much more detailed proposals on how we will realise significant heat decarbonisation in a subsequent climate change plan.

Ms Smith mentioned a “seven-year window”. We are continuing to develop delivery mechanisms. For example, the most recent call on SEEP delivery programme pilots is for projects that will help us to deliver those kinds of options. That includes projects that take an area-based approach to renewable heat technologies and off-gas-grid areas. As part of the SEEP development, we will carry out a high-level policy-scoping consultation on district heating regulation and on a potential duty on local authorities to develop local heat and energy efficiency strategies. That will give us a solid foundation from which to decarbonise the heat supply of our buildings.

It is worth remembering that around half of non-domestic buildings are already heated using electricity, which means that there will be little or no change there. However, as with every other procurement in our homes or wherever, we have to look at the lifetime costs, which is one of the things that the convener picked up on in relation to his visit to a housing association in Glasgow. During the course of the plan, there may be technology advances, as those folks rightly pointed out. I hope that that answer is helpful to Ms Smith.

I have two or three questions on domestic heat. Policy outcome 1 in the climate change plan envisages that

“Improvements to the fabric of Scotland’s domestic buildings results in a 6% reduction in their heat demand by 2032.”

I have been seeking to understand that figure a bit better, to know whether the 6 per cent is a reduction from the aggregate demand now, from the aggregate forecast demand in 2032 or in the per square foot or m² of residential unit heat demand. Can you help me?

That is a complex question from Mr Wightman, as I would expect. I understand that he asked similar questions at the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee yesterday. On demand—I am looking at Mr Garland to make sure that I get this absolutely right—it is the demand in 2030. Am I correct, Mr Garland?

The reduction is based on what we expect demand to be in 2032. I think that Mr Wightman has also asked what the position will be in 2032. We have undertaken to write to him on that in response to written questions from the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee. Obviously, we will share that with this committee as well.

I have a list of questions that Mr Wightman asked at the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee and I understand that officials who were there agreed to write to that committee with more detailed responses. If it is okay with you, convener, I will ask that this committee also gets those detailed responses so that you have the same information as the Economy, Jobs and Fair Work Committee on the areas that are of interest to Mr Wightman and others.

That would be helpful. Mr Wightman is nodding his head in agreement, although I cannot prevent Mr Wightman from re-asking the questions if he chooses to do so.

I would not expect you to.

Are you content with that, Mr Wightman?

Yes. We are short of time, so I intend to move on. Thank you very much for that.

We have heard evidence from organisations including the Existing Homes Alliance, which says that there are “credibility gaps” in the near term in relation to the goal of decarbonising and increasing the energy efficiency of domestic buildings. A reason for that credibility gap is the lack of specific and clearly targeted policies, with numbers attached about carbon, and with timescales and budgets.

I hear what the minister says about maintaining flexibility, which is perfectly reasonable, but one of the most straightforward ways to build in targets would be to adopt one that seeks to get the vast majority of homes to EPC band C by 2025. That would be a specific and time-limited standard. Are you open to reflect on including that in the final plan?

I have looked with interest at the things that have been said by stakeholders, including Elizabeth Leighton of the Existing Homes Alliance Scotland. She said:

“The ambitious targets for the residential sector on energy efficiency and renewable heat are welcome”.

She also talked of “ramping up” what we are doing. That takes me back to my earlier point about looking at what solutions are available. Obviously, there are things that we are going to do anyway—for example, the insulation work that Mr Wightman and Mr Simpson saw in Ayr. We will continue with that work.

I have said that we have an ambitious programme that will help to transform the built environment. It will cut emissions, as well as making it easier and cheaper to heat buildings. We will see a reduction in emissions from the residential sector by 75 per cent on 2014 levels. At the same time, we have to ensure that poor housing is no longer a cause of fuel poverty.

On the EPC band C scenario, a one-size-fits-all target might not be appropriate for housing stock that is as diverse as ours is. We are seeking views on target setting on SEEP. As I have said, the consultation is open until 30 May. We have to be completely realistic: this is not all as simple as we might think. I was struck by that in my visit to Orkney, when I was told about the housing stock there. As I said, there has been a slow start in some regards, but they have done very well. The people were quite honest about the housing stock in the council’s control and told me that it would be impossible ever to get it all up to EPC band C. Some of the housing stock is from the Napoleonic era, so getting that stock up to that level would not be worth while, given the interventions that would be required.

We have to be realistic about generalising about that rating target. We will look at what comes back from the consultation, but we must be aware that there are many buildings with anomalies, so to say that we should aim for uniform EPC band C is probably unrealistic.

I understand that. I do not think that anyone is arguing that we should have that measure for absolutely every building, given that, as you say, some of them predate the Napoleonic war, but it is a question of doing it for the vast majority. Your response is helpful, nonetheless.

My next question is about owner-occupied and private rented housing. You have indicated that you will be consulting on private rented housing, but you were not as clear about the precise nature of the consultation on the owner-occupied sector. Regulation of the private rented and owner-occupied sectors has been long promised. The powers are in the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009; it featured as a potential enabling measure in RPP1; it was included as a concrete proposal in RPP2; and it was developed with stakeholders to detailed pre-consultation through the regulation of energy efficiency in private sector homes working group in the previous session of Parliament. Given all of that work and where we are and how ready we are, I am concerned that the forthcoming consultation will kick that can further down the road.

12:00  

The consultation on the private rented sector will be published next month. We will give a timescale at that point about owner-occupiers as well.

Some of that could have happened before but, due to UK Government changes to the funding landscape in 2015, the Scottish ministers reluctantly took the decision to postpone the consultation about minimal standards because the funding situation was so uncertain at that point. We will publish the private rented sector consultation next month and we will give timescales about owner-occupiers at that point—that is not kicking it into the long grass but dealing with it next month.

Next month, you will produce a consultation on the private rented sector. Are you saying that you will have a timescale in that document for future consultation on the owner-occupied sector?

We will give timescales on what we intend to do in owner-occupier situations at the same time.

I look forward to it—thank you.

A couple of members have supplementaries.

On the question that Andy Wightman asked, what specific policies will result in the doubling of insulation measures in 2018? Also, we have had evidence—I have been frantically looking through my papers to try to find it—to suggest that the materials that are used for insulation might not be environmentally friendly. Do you or your officials have any comment on that?

Let me bring in Mr Garland on the materials, as I am not exactly sure about that.

I have not heard of that directly, either, but we will be pleased to get further information on it and respond to you directly.

Okay. There is also the question on the target to double insulation measures in 2018.

We currently deliver more than 80,000 measures per annum. The plan sets out that 90,000 measures will be installed per annum from 2018. The measures that have been modelled are limited to loft, cavity and solid-wall insulation but, in reality, we deliver a much broader set of measures, including heating systems and controls, floor insulation and glazing in certain parts.

Currently, across the schemes, in the region of 80,000 to 90,000 measures are delivered per annum, and about half of those are wall and loft insulation. It is therefore true that the efforts in loft and wall insulation will need to double under the plan. A huge amount of the interventions that have taken place have been in the public sector and not so many have been in the private rented or owner-occupied sectors, so that is where we will have to move on.

SEEP will be the delivery mechanism for all of our efforts on energy efficiency and, although it is no small undertaking, we have the ability to make those situations become reality. We will work up all that needs to be done through SEEP. The consultation on that is open until the end of May—I cannot advertise that enough—and we are keen to hear from all stakeholders about what they think of the proposals.

Minister, you mentioned EPCs. Last week, we heard some evidence that the whole EPC system is flawed. EPCs are not particularly accurate—two people assessing a property can come up with two different results—and I have heard that the system discriminates against home owners in off-gas-grid rural areas. Do you have any plans to reform the EPC system?

I ask Mr Garland to answer that question.

There is a process of looking at issues that have been raised about EPCs and the standard assessment procedure—SAP—that is involved. The Scottish Government has been doing that over a number of years and has collated issues including those that Graham Simpson has just raised. We also engage with the UK Government to ensure that those issues are picked up.

Among the issues that we are looking at in the development of SEEP is the need to ensure that we have an assessment procedure that is fit for purpose. We are taking into account any issues that there may be with our assessment procedure and building that into the programme. The matter will also be raised in the consultations on regulation that we will develop.

Assessment methodologies are included in the consultation on SEEP. As I go out and about, I hear different opinions about whether things are good or bad and about whether assessments are right. I encourage folk to respond to the consultation.

I also feed back to officials the things that I hear when I am out and about. I was in Shetland on Monday, and one of the construction firms there talked in some depth about the failings of the SAP. When I hear such things and when folk give me examples of how things are not quite right for their particular area—for various reasons, including geography and access to the grid—I always feed them back. I have been telling folk to feed into the consultation. The more folk who bring up the anomalies that often exist, the easier it is to deal with them.

Am I right in thinking that we could have a Scottish system of EPCs? The system does not have to be UK wide, does it?

It is to do with European directive compliance. At the moment, the EPC system works on a UK basis. We would need to take a view on whether there should be a Scottish version; we do not have a view on that at the moment. The process is understood as a way of assessing a building’s performance, although it has flaws and we are looking at how we might improve it.

Given that we all seem to accept that the EPC system has flaws, maybe it is worth considering whether we could have a Scottish solution to a system that we know is not working.

I would not go so far as to say that it is not working. I am not averse to looking at change where change is required, but if we put in another universal system, it is likely that there would be some anomalies because of particular circumstances.

Obviously, whenever I hear of any difficulties—there are pretty few, it has to be said—I feed that in to officials. It would be wrong of us to say that the system is flawed; although there may be some anomalies, I do not think that we could go so far as to say that the system is completely flawed.

It is heartening to see that Graham Simpson supports independence for EPCs—it is a start.

Devolution.

I thought that you would say that. [Laughter.]

Good afternoon, minister. The Scottish Federation of Housing Associations submission states:

“Funding for low carbon heating should be concentrated in off gas areas, with a target to have renewable and low carbon heating in all off gas areas by 2025.”

In my constituency, I have two islands—Cumbrae and Arran—and both are off-gas-grid areas. What does the Scottish Government propose to do to address that aim?

David Stewart of the SFHA said that. I am very aware of the difficulties faced by off-gas-grid areas, and I take cognisance particularly of the fact that for some areas that are off-gas-grid—island communities—the cost of electricity is much higher.

We are keen to use other technologies to ensure that we do our best. On Shetland and Orkney, the use of low-carbon heat options, using heat pumps in particular, is quite something. On Monday, I visited a new scheme by the Hjaltland Housing Association at the old Met Office site outside Lerwick and asked about the heat pumps that it is using. The cost of the technology that is being used there now, compared with what it was, and the outcome for home owners means that it is the right way to go. Those technologies will improve as we go on; for off-gas-grid areas, that is the way forward, unless there is a mass. Lerwick has a district heating scheme that works well for large parts of Lerwick but not for folks outside it.

Folks who are off-gas-grid have huge opportunities now that did not exist before. We have to recognise that fact and we will build on it in the SEEP framework.

Some of the fuel that is used on our islands includes oil-based solutions, which we want to get away from. You talk about innovative technology and the opportunities that are available, but it sounds a bit piecemeal, to be frank.

Is there no strategy to deliver comprehensively in such communities, as the SFA—that is, the SFHA—is suggesting could be done by 2025, which is eight years away, and to try to harness the opportunities? Obviously there will be economies of scale if that is being done on a more strategic level, rather than just hoping that some individuals will do it. We could find that it is still a major issue a decade from now.

12:15  

One of the key issues in all this is getting all our partners to come on board to help to deliver. The experts in what goes on in island and rural communities are local people and local councils.

On working out plans to deliver, I expect local authorities such as North Ayrshire Council to come up with innovative plans to deliver solutions.

The bulk of the SEEP pilots that we have announced—I have talked about the second pilot that the First Minister announced last week in Dalmarnock—are being led by local authorities, which are receiving the cash and driving forward projects.

I am keen to see all authorities bidding for a share of funding, with the right schemes. I see no reason why the likes of North Ayrshire Council should not put forward some kind of innovative plan for the Cumbraes, for example.

Mr Wightman was going to explore the theme of policy outcomes some more before we move on to planning. Do you want to do that now?

No.

Okay. I have one more point to raise. There is a concern that low-carbon technologies can be expensive to run and maintain, such that there can be a relationship between low-carbon technologies and fuel poverty unless we also use other measures, including energy efficiency, in properties. The SFHA raised concerns in relation to that; I am interested to hear your reflections on that, minister.

I go back to what I said in response to Mr Gibson. New technologies are often expensive to start with, but costs do go down. There is also a volume aspect.

As we move on with our ambitions to decarbonise even more, we will have to use more new technologies. I ask folk to look at the lifetime costs of new technology and think about whether it will be worth their while putting in something new as opposed to old technology. The old technology might be inexpensive at this moment in time, but what will its lifetime cost be compared with a new piece of kit that might last that much longer through the changes that we will see?

The plan itself is pretty good in relation to a lot of the new technologies that we hope will come into play; there might even be different technologies by the time we get to that point. Technology will advance as we go on. There are things that we are not doing in the UK at the moment that are being done elsewhere, and there is a level of testing that is only just starting here. Hydrogen technology, for example, is not moving fast enough.

The UK Government controls the gas networks. The H21 project in Leeds has not moved far at all. Other places are considering putting biogas and hydrogen into their gas networks, but we are behind on that. We do not have the power to deal with it ourselves and are reliant on others to develop it. We will continue to encourage it but hydrogen technology and biogas use are not likely to happen in the first phase of the plan. That is why we have laid out the plan in the way that we have.

Your initial point related to the cost—

It was a specific point—I do not know whether you have addressed it.

The SFA—I think that is the second time that has been said. I meant the SFHA. The SFHA has said that, because of the expense of low-carbon technologies,

“the plan could be strengthened in relation to improving energy efficiency and reducing fuel poverty”.

I do not expect you to say now how it could be strengthened, but will you reflect on that? We have to report on the plan.

I hope that the Scottish Football Association will be just as interested in decarbonisation as everyone else. I hope that everyone is interested.

I will put it simply. We are focusing on energy efficiency in the early years of the plan because people may be uncomfortable with the technologies, which we can deal with later. Dealing with energy efficiency also means that properties will be ready to be converted to low-carbon heat, so as well as helping to reduce bills now, it will help to mitigate future energy price rises.

It is important that we decarbonise our built environment in a way that is socially and economically sustainable. As you know, convener, I am responsible for fuel poverty, too. All the policies have to interlink—it is absolutely right that they do—so that we can do our very best to ensure that people can live in warm homes and a good environment.

I want to leave time for the questions on planning, and Mr Wightman also wants to come in. However, your last comment was helpful. It would be helpful if we could get something later on the link that you have just mentioned between energy efficiency measures and tackling fuel poverty, in relation to which the SFHA has said

“the plan could be strengthened”,

because we have to respond to all the evidence that we receive and I think that you were hinting at that.

I am more than willing to come back to the committee after the consultation on SEEP has finished and the analysis has been done. The consultation will have to take cognizance of stakeholder views and other views that are submitted. The key thing—I am parroting again—is that we get as many views in the consultation as possible so that we can create the best possible plan and the best possible means of delivering its aims.

Thank you, minister. We will move on with Mr Wightman.

The next topic is planning. The draft climate change plan contains just one page on the planning system. It starts by saying:

“Ensuring the planning system supports decarbonisation is another essential element of the Scottish Government’s approach to meeting the statutory climate change targets.”

However, it does not say anything about how the planning system could do that. At present, the objectives for decarbonisation and mitigating climate change are contained in the national planning framework. Are you open to the prospect of the forthcoming planning bill embedding the need to decarbonise and move to a low-carbon society as a principal purpose of planning, given the role that it plays in designing places, standards and transport modes across Scotland?

Planning already has an important role to play in reducing emissions and adapting to future climate change. First, we have to locate development in the right places to provide opportunities for folk to make sustainable choices and improve their quality of life. We also have to aid the transition to a low-carbon economy, including by supporting diversification of energy infrastructure, as we are doing. Before I came in to the committee room this morning, I was reading a tweet about the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Jobs and Fair Work, Keith Brown, addressing a conference this morning and talking about cities taking the lead in decarbonisation. Planning also has to set the environmental limits, and we have to ensure that transport and digital infrastructure are delivered by the planning system.

However, planning focuses largely on new developments, change of use and strategic plans. It does not concentrate on existing buildings, but a lot of the work that we have to undertake and what we seek to deliver is about what currently exists. As Mr Wightman knows well, we published our planning consultation earlier this year, and it goes on until 4 April. I am keen to show that planning can guide sustainable communities to support the development of low-carbon infrastructure. The document also confirms that the national planning framework should continue to bring together Scottish Government policies, including on climate change.

I understand where Mr Wightman is coming from on planning as a tool to achieve a number of goals, and I do not disagree that it has a great part to play. However, a huge amount of what we have to achieve is about changing existing buildings and places to get to where we need to be in decarbonisation.

Do you have a follow-up question on that?

No. I will leave it at that. That was helpful; it is obvious that the conversation on planning still has some way to run.

Elaine Smith has a supplementary question. Is it on planning?

It is—but if Andy Wightman is going to stay on planning, I can ask it after that.

I have another question specifically on planning.

The planning white paper proposes repeal of section 72 of the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009, which is about local government powers regarding low-carbon and zero-carbon projects in local development plans, yet the Scottish Government’s “Sixth Annual Report on the Operation of Section 72 of the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009”, which was published in March 2016, says that the Scottish Government has concluded that the legislation should remain in force. What is your view?

12:30  

Mr Wightman is right: we want to remove planning procedures that do not add value. The climate change plan makes it clear that there is a further role for reducing building-based emissions—significantly, in energy use for space heating. Section 72 of the 2009 act, which inserted new section 3F into the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997, has the potential to work against the delivery of community network-based heating schemes, because the legislation promotes individual building-based technologies. Obviously, we will welcome comments on the proposals by 4 April, but I am sure that Mr Wightman and others will want to remove impediments to community or network-based heating schemes. If the committee wants further detail on that, I am more than willing to write with it.

I find it interesting that on 22 March the Government thought that the legislation should remain in force. I am very open to amending legislation, but I am concerned to ensure that legislation that we already have to encourage and give powers to local government to deliver low-carbon and zero-carbon technologies is not in any way diluted. If the legislation is getting in the way, however, that is another matter. I am content to leave the issue at that.

I will write to Mr Wightman and the committee in some depth on the matter. Obviously we want zero-carbon-generating technology to be the best it can be. Perhaps section 72 is not quite right; we will provide the committee with more detail, including on building standards.

Thank you very much. Elaine Smith will ask the final question.

We have received a lot of submissions on and had a lot of interest in this matter, but I want to focus on two submissions in particular. On planning, RSPB Scotland says at the start of its submission that it

“considers planning to be central to the delivery of the Climate Change Plan”

Further on, though, it points out that

“The role of planning in supporting modal shift in travel from private car to public and active travel is not covered in the draft Climate Change Plan. Indeed, there is very little on managing demand for travel or promoting sustainable modes”

and it suggests that, in that respect, local authorities could use

“their support for buses and active travel routes.”

Secondly, Sustaining Dunbar says in its submission that, in its experience,

“people would be ... happy to make many of the lifestyle changes required to reduce their household carbon footprint.”

However, it thinks that they still “face ... barriers” and “perverse incentives”, one of which is

“flights being cheaper than trains”

while the Scottish Government sends out “mixed messages” on sustainable economic growth.

I just wanted to put those views to you for your comments. I appreciate your point about the consultation, and it might well be that the views of these two organisations would form part of that.

I will not go into too much depth on transport because it is not in my portfolio, but I will deal with the planning aspects of Ms Smith’s question.

As the committee is probably well aware, the document “Scottish Planning Policy” from 2014 makes it clear that the planning system should

“apply a town centre first policy”

and should take cognisance of that

“when planning for uses which attract significant numbers of people”.

It also suggests

“a mix of uses in town centres to support their vibrancy, vitality and viability”,

which is not the easiest thing to say. Perhaps we should have rethought that sentence when we wrote it into planning policy.

Of course, “Scotland’s Third National Planning Framework” sets out a strategy that reinforces the role of key settlements and towns in rural areas. It is clear that development plans should promote opportunities for travel by more sustainable modes. Indeed, the policy itself sets out an order of priority or a hierarchy: walking, cycling, public transport and cars.

The SPP also makes it clear that

“Planning permission should not be granted for significant travel-generating uses at locations which would increase reliance on the”

private

“car and where ... direct links to local facilities via walking and cycling networks are not available or cannot be made available”.

It then goes into great depth about travel to local facilities and into even greater depth about transport assessments. All that is already built into planning policy.

I cannot comment on the individual submissions that you have received, particularly from Sustaining Dunbar, because I have not seen them. However, as I have outlined, “Scottish Planning Policy” itself puts real emphasis on transport, so I hope that planning authorities are taking cognisance of all that in developing their local plans and strategies.

Time is upon us. Do you wish to make any final comments before we move into private session, minister?

I am fine, convener.

I should put on record that the committee has to finalise its report by 8 March. That is the timescale that we are working to, minister, if you or your team wish to feed in additional information. I thank you and your officials for coming along today for what has been a very helpful session.

12:37 Meeting continued in private until 12:42.