Contents
- Attendance
- European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
- Subordinate Legislation
- Pre-Budget Scrutiny 2021-22
European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018
Reciprocal and Cross-Border Healthcare (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
Good morning, and welcome to the 24th meeting of the Health and Sport Committee in 2020. We have received apologies from Alex Cole-Hamilton.
Item 1 is consideration of four consent notifications that propose that the Scottish Government give consent to the United Kingdom Government to legislate, using the powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, through a number of UK statutory instruments.
The first consent notification that we will consider relates to the Reciprocal and Cross-Border Healthcare (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020. I invite comments from members.
Thank you, convener. On page 4 of our paper on the consent notification, in paragraph 20(b) it is recommended that if the committee approves the giving of consent, it
“use the letter confirming approval to request that it is kept updated on the Scottish Government’s role in negotiations as detailed above”—
in paragraph 19 of the paper, where it says that the committee might ask to be
“kept updated on the Scottish Government’s role in negotiations between the UK and the EU on the future status of citizens’ rights to healthcare and to social security benefits. In particular, the Committee could ask what progress is being made in relation to the rights Scottish citizens will have if they fall ill while travelling, living and/or ... working abroad in an EU country after 31 December.”
I think that it is important that we take up the recommendation in paragraph 20(b) and make that request, so that we can keep an eye on the issue.
Thank you. No other member wants to comment. If we are content with the giving of consent, we can also—as Sandra White said—ask to be kept up to date on the negotiations, in our letter confirming that.
Are members content for the Scottish Government to give its consent for UK ministers to lay the statutory instrument in the UK Parliament, and if so, also to use the letter that will confirm approval in the way that has been described? No member has said that they are not content.
Nutrition (Amendment etc) EU Exit Regulations 2020
We move to the second consent notification. I invite comments from members.
Members have no comments on the regulations—
I apologise; I missed Sandra White.
My comments will touch on the Northern Ireland protocol; I seek clarification on a number of issues in that respect. Is the Northern Ireland protocol deemed to be akin to EU regulations? Through the regulations, “UK” is to be taken out of regulations and “Great Britain” put in. I could go through each regulation, but I do not want to go on for too long. My reading is that the Northern Ireland protocol appears to be more akin to the European Union approach, which is why Northern Ireland is being taken out of the regulations. Is that correct?
Yes. I think that the human tissue regulations to which we will come have more focus on the Northern Ireland protocol.
The regulations will, as will all the regulations that we are considering today, put in place arrangements under the withdrawal agreement—in other words, the treaty that has been agreed between the United Kingdom and the European Union. The regulations will allow Northern Ireland to continue to operate within the scope of EU regulations. Slightly different approaches by Northern Ireland and Great Britain are required.
The Minister for Public Health, Sport and Wellbeing’s letter on the regulations states:
“It is our unwelcome responsibility to ensure that devolved law continues to function”.
The letter also says:
“Please note, we are yet to have sight of the final SI”,
which is not available in the public domain. I am a bit concerned that we have not seen the SI but have, like the Scottish Government, no option but to recommend that we agree to it.
Rather than go through every paragraph, the last issue that I will raise is—I thank the convener for clarifying this—the situation whereby Northern Ireland rules and regulations are more akin to the EU’s, which is why Northern Ireland is being taken out of the regulations. That is rather strange, however, given that Northern Ireland is supposed to be part of the UK.
Does the change mean that goods that come from Northern Ireland to Great Britain will be treated as imports but goods going from Scotland, or “GB”, to Northern Ireland will be subject to EU law and not treated as imports? I think that that question will also apply to the Human Tissue (Quality and Safety for Human Application) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020 and the Quality and Safety of Organs Intended for Transplantation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.
That broadly describes the position, but the situation is complex, as you say. The point about having sight of the statutory instrument is important, though. I recommend to the committee that we agree to the Scottish Government going ahead with the nutrition regulations but express in writing to the Government that we would welcome sight of the SI when it is available.
This will clearly be a common experience, as it has been already, in the process of EU exit and withdrawal legislation, because it is often being done at a pace that means that SIs are not always seen in line with the usual parliamentary requirements. However, how Sandra White has described the relationship between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is the case.
Thank you for that clarification. I presume that that is to prevent a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. With Brexit looming, it is important that that is mentioned.
That is correct, and I hope that that clarifies matters. As I said, some of the issues that Sandra White raised perhaps have greater applicability to the next instrument that we will come to.
However, in relation to the Nutrition (Amendment etc) EU Exit Regulations 2020, the question is whether the committee is content to approve the Scottish Government giving its consent to UK ministers laying an SI in the UK Parliament on the subject and, in confirming that, to express that we would welcome sight of the SI when it is available. No member disagrees, so the committee is content to do that.
Human Tissue (Quality and Safety for Human Application) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
Quality and Safety of Organs Intended for Transplantation (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
Blood Safety and Quality (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020
The third consent notification is in relation to three instruments, as indicated on the agenda. I invite comments from members.
Paragraph 3 of our papers says:
“The effect of the amendments will be that where donated human organs, tissues and cells, and blood move from Northern Ireland to Great Britain, they will not be treated as imports. Conversely however, when these are sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, they will need to be treated as imports”.
It is obviously disappointing that we are leaving the EU. I worry that the regulations will increase complexity because—as a former liver transplant nurse—I worry that there will be delays. We cannot have delays in organ and tissue transplantation; a heart, for example, can stay on ice for only four hours. It is a real challenge, so we need to ensure that no delays are incurred as a result of any of the regulations that are to be put in place. I seek assurance about that.
That is reasonable. Brian Whittle also has a point to make.
It is my understanding that one of the reasons for potential disparity is that there are differences between the UK and Northern Ireland because there are devolved health services within the UK. Is that one of the reasons why things seem to go one way here?
I am no expert on the details, but my sense is that that is not particularly the case. The regulations that we are considering today in the context of Scotland are a variant of regulations that will apply in the context of England. The difference in definition is between Great Britain on the one hand, and Northern Ireland on the other. As Emma Harper said, the difference is fundamentally to protect Northern Ireland’s position, and access for Northern Irish citizens.
The committee has looked at organ donation, and the Scottish Government and Parliament have changed how we can access transplants. As things stand, organs can move around Great Britain freely. Is that changing for Northern Ireland? Is that what we are saying?
No—but the legislation creates a framework within which change could happen, in due course. That would be cause for concern, as Emma Harper has described, if it had consequences for the transplant process in Northern Ireland, or in Scotland or elsewhere in GB. That is something that we should address in making a decision.
Emma Harper’s point is valid. As far as I know, the Northern Ireland protocol is a protocol for the Northern Irish alone and is more akin to European law, which is why regulations’ wording is being changed from “UK” to “GB”—meaning England, Scotland and Wales. The regulations also mention specifically that any organ transplant going from GB will be subject to EU protocols, but organs being sent from Northern Ireland to Great Britain will just be treated as imports.
There are implications for the length of time transportation takes, and for whether there are any charges and so on. That is my understanding. The regulations are simply because of Brexit and making sure that there is no hard border on Ireland. That is what it is all about.
That is absolutely right. That describes the situation well. We are in very unusual circumstances and my reading is that, in laying the instrument, the Scottish Government is seeking to protect the position of people who might wish to receive or donate in relation to transplants between Scotland and Northern Ireland.
The wider treaty between the UK and the EU protects Northern Ireland’s access—or membership if you like—subject to the rules of the single market. That is a political agreement that has been reached between the UK and the European Union.
10:45To go back to Brian Whittle’s point, I say that it is possible that we could end up with four different sets of regulations applying in the four nations of the United Kingdom.
I would like to raise a point about organ and tissue transplantation. The traceability, tracking and following of organs and tissues are crucial when we are working with patients and trying to ensure that the right organ gets to the right person. Brexit is not a job done; it has caused many issues. We must ensure that the safety of everyone involved is continued when we look at changing the regulations.
That is my view and, based on the comments that we have heard from Sandra White and Brian Whittle, the committee also believes that protecting organ donation is a priority. The committee has done significant work on that in the past year or two—for example, on ensuring that traceability is maintained and that there is freedom of movement for vital and time-dependent organs.
Although that is a matter of concern for the committee, I do not think that I have heard anyone suggest that we should not signal our approval for the Scottish Government to proceed. That would mean that we would consent to UK ministers laying a statutory instrument on the subject in the UK Parliament.
Are members of the committee content with that, subject to our sending a letter asking for confirmation on a number of issues? It seems that members are content.
I suggest that the letter include a request that we be kept up to date on the Scottish Government’s engagement with the UK Government on the Northern Ireland protocol. We should also ask what procedure would apply if there were to be any future divergence in the applicable standards between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and we should ask for an assurance that the Scottish Government is approaching the matter in a way that will ensure that there is no delay in the organ transplant process and no impact on traceability in organ transplants.
Does any member disagree that those points should go into the letter? We are content. Thank you.
The fourth and final consent notification is on two sets of regulations: the European Qualifications (Health and Social Care Professions) (EFTA States) (Amendment etc) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020, and the Professional Qualifications and Services (Amendments and Miscellaneous Provisions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020.
Members have no comments, so is the committee content for the Scottish Government to give its consent to UK ministers laying a statutory instrument in the UK Parliament on the subject?. No member disagrees.
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