Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, May 26, 2020

Official Report 674KB pdf

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Subordinate Legislation

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Scottish Animal Welfare Commission Regulations 2020 [Draft]

The second item on our agenda is to take evidence on the draft regulations on the Scottish animal welfare commission.

I welcome back Mairi Gougeon, the Minister for Rural Affairs and the Natural Environment, who is joined by her officials Andrew Voas, veterinary head of animal welfare, and Alison Leighton, lawyer for the Scottish Government.

I will open the questions. In the material that has been sent to us, there is no role for Parliament in appointing the chair or members. What is the reason for that? Is that level of parliamentary involvement in the commission not needed?

The Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006 does not specify any role for Parliament when it comes to member appointments, including the chair.

As the minister responsible, I was directly involved in the recruitment and appointment of the chair. Members were independently selected and appointed purely on the basis of their animal welfare expertise and qualifications. That approach is not unusual; I believe that the just transition commission was set up in a similar fashion.

You alluded to expertise as a criterion on which the commission’s representatives have been chosen. Will you outline the expertise in the commission and give a flavour of who is involved?

Absolutely, and I would be happy to write to the committee with more information about each of the commission’s members.

The expertise that is needed, and that might be needed in future, depending on the issues that the commission looks at, is dictated by the commission’s work plan, and by vacancies, where those arise; members cannot be appointed for more than four years.

All members would be expected to have a sound knowledge and grasp of animal welfare; their skills and expertise might be, for example, in animal welfare law, wildlife management, practical enforcement or veterinary care. I believe that the commission’s membership at the moment broadly covers all those vital areas.

The commission will be able to co-opt experts who are not members to work on particular issues—for example, on working groups that will be established for specific projects. If there is an area where expertise is missing on the commission, it will be able to co-opt that as and when it is needed.

Therefore, the commission has flexibility to move with regard to issues as they come up, which is reassuring.

Provided that the regulations are approved today, the commission will also cover companion animals and wild animals, so it is important that it has flexibility and is able to get differing expertise as and when required.

Thank you. Angus MacDonald has a question on the budget.

We have just heard that Parliament has no role with regard to appointments. Nor does it have a role in setting the budget. Should it have such a role? If not, why not?

Members of the commission will not receive any financial remuneration for their time. The travel and accommodation expenses that are attributed to the work of the commission will be reimbursed in line with the current Scottish Government travel and subsistence policy.

I emphasise that the roles are not full time. It is anticipated that the full commission will probably meet three times a year and that most of the work will be done via email and smaller working groups on specific topics, between those meetings. That means that the cost associated with the running of the commission is not expected to be great. The animal health and welfare division has allocated and holds the budget to cover those expenses and the costs of publishing reports. Scottish Government animal welfare officials are also providing the secretariat, so there will not be direct costs for the commission in that regard. There is no particular role for the Parliament in setting the commission’s budget.

Is no money set aside at all? If there is a minimum budget, could you give us a rough idea of it?

The budget will cover the expenses, and there is money set aside to be able to deal with them. The animal health and welfare division has allocated about £50,000 to cover members’ expenses and the publication of papers. If the regulations are approved today and the commission comes into being, I think that we will review the budget and revise it accordingly, once the commission has been operational for a year.

The budget is based on what has been allocated to the equivalent United Kingdom Animal Welfare Committee, which was formerly known as the Farm Animal Welfare Committee. Based on the operating costs that we have seen, the budget for the Scottish animal welfare committee appears to be realistic—it is minus the daily rate that is paid to members on the equivalent UK body. When the commission is in operation, we will of course keep the budget under review.

Does Claudia Beamish have questions on parliamentary accountability?

My questions have been answered, convener. I had concerns because some other commissions, such as the Scottish Land Commission, have parliamentary accountability, but I understand the distinction; the Scottish Land Commission was set up through legislation. I wish the Scottish animal welfare commission well with its significant and important work.

Finlay Carson has questions on the overall duty of the commission.

The regulations set out the function of the commission, which is to provide advice on matters that concern the welfare of protected animals, but they do not impose any duty on the commission to seek to further animal welfare. In contrast, the Scottish Human Rights Commission has a general duty in primary legislation to promote human rights. Will you give the background as to why no such duty is required or appropriate?

I reassure the committee that part of the commission’s remit will be the furtherance of companion animal and wildlife welfare in Scotland. Although it might not be explicitly stated in legislation, I have absolutely no doubt that the promotion of animal welfare will be implicit in everything that the commission does. The commission has sufficient flexibility to provide advice on a range of matters concerning the welfare of animals—I reassure the committee on that point.

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Perhaps, but why is that not stated in the legislation, as is the case in the SHRC legislation?

I come back to the point that, although it is not specifically stated in the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, that does not mean that the commission will not undertake such work. It is not explicitly stated but, as everybody would expect, that will be one of the core pieces of work that the commission will undertake, and a core value that it will seek to implement in carrying out its work. I see that as being vital to the commission’s role, as would a lot of people with regard to any animal welfare commission. The furtherance of companion animal and wildlife welfare in Scotland will be a core component of the work that the commission takes forward.

I will ask about what is on the commission’s work programme at this point. We have just got through stage 2 of the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protection and Powers) (Scotland) Bill and a number of issues have been parked, such as performance animals—beyond those in travelling circuses—and greyhound racing. There is concern about the lack of neutering of cats and the positive role that that could play in restoring wildcat populations in Scotland. There is on-going work in the European Union around the definition of animal sentience, and there are issues around seal welfare and culling, which I know that you are hoping to bring into the scope of the Animals and Wildlife (Penalties, Protection and Powers) (Scotland) Bill at stage 3.

Those are some of the issues that spring to mind; what are your priorities for the commission’s work, or is it for the commission to set its priorities and reflect on what Government has worked on and what there is still to do?

It will probably be a bit of a mixture. As you said, we have just gone through stage 2 of the bill today and I mentioned a couple of issues that we will perhaps ask the animal welfare commission to look at further. One such area relates to Maurice Golden’s amendment, in relation to which he talked about electronic training collars. That is an issue on which we committed to undertake a review of the guidance, which we are doing at the moment. That is potentially an issue that we could ask the animal welfare commission to consider.

I believe that the commission is looking at its work plan at the moment and will have the flexibility to look at issues that it feels are important to consider, to determine whether there are any legislative changes or non-legislative issues that we need to look at. If there are pressing issues that we feel need the commission’s expert and independent consideration, we will be able to refer them to the commission. There will be flexibility.

The regulations will require the commission to prepare an annual work plan, which will have to be published, as well as an annual report, which will be laid before the Scottish Parliament and will set out how the commission has delivered on the work plan. Therefore, there will be opportunities for the Parliament to be updated on the work that the commission is undertaking.

You said that, from your perspective, shock collars are a priority for the commission. I mentioned several other issues, such as performance animals, the neutering of cats and animal sentience. What are your views on those matters? Will you ask the commission to look at other priorities?

Yes, there will likely be other priorities. As the member knows, there are a whole host of issues in my portfolio. Obviously, we have to prioritise which issues we want to refer to the animal welfare commission—issues that could be pressing to us in relation to particular legislation, or areas on which we feel that we need its advice. The commission will, of course, have to prioritise its workload. It will be a case of trying to ensure that we get that right and give the commission issues to consider that need its consideration.

What are your priorities?

I cannot today give you a definitive list of issues that I am looking to give to the animal welfare commission, but I would be happy to update members on particular issues of interest. It will be up to the commission to prepare an annual work plan, which will be published, as well as an annual report, in which you will see all the information.

You alluded to the commission working and co-operating with other bodies. How will the commission work with such bodies as the Animal and Plant Health Agency?

I imagine that the commission will work closely with other organisations. The commission will have a close working relationship with the committee that I mentioned—the Farm Animal Welfare Committee, which is now the UK Animal Welfare Committee and which looks at the welfare of farm animals. I know that the commission is keen to foster a close working relationship with such bodies and to ensure that they share their knowledge.

It is also about ensuring that resources are best utilised so that there is no duplication of work. The commission will undoubtedly engage with bodies such as APHA, because there are a lot of similarities and crossover in the issues that such bodies deal with.

No members have indicated that they wish to ask more questions. I thank the minister and her officials for that evidence. I ask the minister to move motion S5M-21671, in the name of Fergus Ewing.

Motion moved,

That the Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform Committee recommends that the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission Regulations 2020 [draft] be approved.—[Mairi Gougeon]

Motion agreed to.

I thank the minister for her time. The committee will report its decision on the regulations in due course. I ask members to confirm that they are happy to delegate authority to me to sign off on the report.

Members indicated agreement.

That concludes the committee’s business today. I thank everyone for their professionalism and time. The next meeting of the committee is anticipated to take place on 2 June.

Meeting closed at 12:10.