- The Convener (David Stewart):
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I welcome you all to this meeting of the Public Petitions Committee. We have received apologies from Richard Lyle—whose substitute Kevin Stewart will not be attending in his place—and from Nanette Milne. I remind everyone to keep their mobile phones switched off—that would be helpful.
Item 1 is consideration of new petitions. There are a number of new petitions for us to consider today.
The first new petition is PE1393, on tackling child sexual exploitation in Scotland. Members have a note from the clerk, the Scottish Parliament information centre briefing and a copy of the petition. I warmly welcome our guests from Barnardo’s Scotland who are giving evidence today: Martin Crewe, the director; Mark Ballard, head of policy and an ex-member of the Scottish Parliament—I welcome him back to the Parliament; and Daljeet Dagon, children’s services manager. I invite Mr Crewe to make a short presentation of no more than five minutes, after which we will move to questions.
- Martin Crewe (Barnardo’s Scotland):
I thank members of the Public Petitions Committee for inviting Barnardo’s Scotland to speak today in favour of our petition.
Child sexual exploitation is one of Scotland’s biggest hidden child protection problems. It affects far too many of our children, and is a problem that we believe is on the increase in Scotland.
For clarity, child sexual exploitation is generally defined as any involvement of a child or young person below 18 in sexual activity for which a remuneration of cash or in kind is given to the child or young person or a third party or person. The perpetrator will have power over the young person by virtue of one or more of the following: age, emotional maturity, gender, physical strength and intellect.
Barnardo’s is the United Kingdom’s foremost authority on the issue of child sexual exploitation and has been leading a nationwide campaign to tackle the problem. In Scotland, our expertise stretches back 20 years with the UK’s first dedicated service designed to support victims and those who are in danger of sexual exploitation. We currently have two dedicated services—in Glasgow and Dundee—that deal directly with child sexual exploitation, but many of our 70 services throughout Scotland are picking up on these issues, too.
However, the overall picture of child sexual exploitation services throughout Scotland is patchy at best. Part of the reason for that is that no one knows the full extent of the problem. No Scottish research has been carried out, and the research that has been undertaken elsewhere in the UK does not give an indication of the full picture in Scotland.
From what we hear from our services on the ground, we know that exploitation is occurring throughout Scotland in towns and cities—including Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Perth—where there are currently no dedicated services. It is not confined to urban locations, but is happening in rural areas, too.
The nature of the crime is changing, too. It is becoming increasingly organised and is shifting from the streets to the internet, social networking sites and mobile phones. It is worth remembering how much those technologies have changed our lives over the past few years—for instance, Facebook has been in existence only since 2004. We believe that comprehensive research is needed in order to find out the full extent and nature of the problem so that we can work to ensure that Scotland is best placed to prevent it, as well as providing comprehensive support to the victims.
In our petition, we call for the 2003 guidelines that relate to child sexual exploitation to be updated and enforced. Those guidelines are outdated but vitally important. The new guidelines need to reflect recent changes in legislation and focus on all aspects of sexual exploitation. Local authorities need strong, robust protocols to ensure that professionals are aware of and can identify when young people are in danger of being exploited, and can then take appropriate action. We also need guidelines in place to support professionals to deal with new developments and advances in mobile technology and social media.
In our petition, we highlight an nfpSynergy poll, which found that 70 per cent of those who were asked said that they were concerned about child sexual exploitation. Since we submitted our petition, a ComRes poll has indicated that 46 per cent of Scottish parents believe that there are children being sexually exploited in their local area, which is a higher percentage than anywhere else in the UK. Since we submitted our petition, more than 1,200 people have registered their support, either online or in one of our shops, with more to come. We will present a final list of signatories to the committee at a later date.
Our concerns are shared by members of this Parliament. Joe FitzPatrick, MSP for Dundee West, lodged a motion that backed our campaign and called for action. The motion has so far attracted support from 34 MSPs across all the political parties. We hope that the committee will agree that now is the time to step up our efforts to tackle the problem. We would like to see the petition as the first step, and for the committee to approach other key organisations, such as the police, local authorities, the national health service and the Scottish Government—all of which we work with on these issues—to gain their views so that we can agree on the best way forward.
We believe that what our petition calls for is both necessary and achievable by the Scottish Government. We also believe that it is essential if we are to protect Scotland’s children from sexual exploitation.
- The Convener:
Thank you very much, Mr Crewe, and thank you for keeping within the time limit. Before I ask my colleagues to ask questions, I have a couple of points. I was interested to see that the petition calls for more research. Presumably the on-going problem of organised crime, and particularly its relationship with eastern European immigrants, is a growing problem for you. Have you picked up on that in your investigations?
- Daljeet Dagon (Barnardo’s Scotland):
I am a service manager based in Glasgow, which is a dispersal area for asylum-seeking communities. We have recently been involved in a police investigation in Glasgow. Although it has not been concluded, we believe that a number of adult males from ethnic backgrounds that are different from that of the indigenous population of Scotland have been charged with offences against children. That is therefore one area—although not the only one—that we are concerned about.
- The Convener:
Thank you. I was a bit concerned to find in the briefing that there has been only one conviction under the Protection of Children and Prevention of Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2005 for child sexual exploitation. That appears to be an extremely low rate. Have you any thoughts on why the conviction rate is so poor?
- Martin Crewe:
We have discussed the issue with the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland. The main reason is that a number of cases have had an element of child sexual exploitation, but the person has been charged with a different offence. Mark Ballard may want to say more on that.
- Mark Ballard (Barnardo’s Scotland):
The evidence in that area is based on answers to a series of written questions to the Scottish Government. The Minister for Children and Young People, Angela Constance, highlighted that if a case is brought to trial where one of the charges is under the 2005 act but is a lesser charge, the courts will not record that charge and will record only the higher-tariff charge. Therefore, there may be cases in which charges are brought under the 2005 act but are simply not recorded.
However, we are speculating in this area, as is ACPOS. Research has not been carried out to enable us to say why the 2005 act does not appear to result in the number of prosecutions that were predicted when it was discussed in Parliament. We certainly hope that research will investigate that element and will perhaps lead to more post-legislative scrutiny of the 2005 act.
- The Convener:
Thank you. I have a final question before I ask my colleagues to come in. I understand that one of the huge issues in dealing with child abuse and, indeed, adult abuse is that there is a time bar of three years. I know that there has been discussion with the Scottish Government on that. Have you discussed the issue within Barnardo’s?
- Daljeet Dagon:
Going back to your earlier question, which links to this question, I think that it is more about young people’s understanding of what is happening to them. If they are not able to understand or recognise that they are being exploited and abused, they are not going to come forward. I suppose that the link to both your questions is about young people having greater awareness. It is important to have not only research but local protocols and procedures in every local authority that raise both professionals’ awareness and young people’s awareness of what is happening to them.
- Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP):
I welcome back Mark Ballard; I also welcome Martin Crewe and Daljeet Dagon, whom I met just last week in Barnardo’s Glasgow office. I was very impressed by the work that Barnardo’s does. Obviously, we are looking for more research and investigation to be done. You are right that young people’s understanding is the important issue, Daljeet, because when we spoke last week, I saw examples that showed that some young people do not understand that they are being led along the road to being abused.
I have a couple of questions. According to our briefing paper, the minister, Angela Constance, has said that the 2003 guidance was revised in 2010, but you have commented that there has been no update—nor any firm commitment. If we continue the petition and write to the minister, what exactly would you be asking for, apart from the three issues that you have raised in the petition? Do you want the Government to commission research, or local authorities to become involved in a partnership? I would like you to elaborate on that. I am rather concerned that we have had no firm commitment from the Government and I am very concerned about the online grooming aspect—I hope to come back in on that later, if the convener allows me to.
14:15
- Mark Ballard:
We would look for a commitment to research because, as I indicated in response to the convener’s question, we cannot give you the answers—we simply do not have the research evidence in place. So research is one element.
There are important action points in the 2003 guidance—relating to local protocols, for example, which Daljeet Dagon mentioned—that are not happening but which need to happen, so the second issue involves taking some of those forward.
The 2010 national child protection guidance refers to child sexual exploitation, but in the context of investigations into organised abuse of children, so it does not deal with the full spectrum. We feel that dedicated guidance is needed for this particular area, in which there is a lack of awareness among a broad swathe of practitioners—whether they are teachers, social workers or health professionals—who work with children and young people. New guidance would build on the 2010 guidance and give the additional detail that is required.
All three of those elements link together, and we are seeking the whole package from the Government.
- Sandra White:
You are absolutely right. Should the guidance be expanded to address online grooming too, so that teachers and others are made aware of it?
- Daljeet Dagon:
It would have to be. From our experience over 20 years, Barnardo’s has identified three different models that relate to how young people become involved in sexual exploitation. They range from an inappropriate relationship with one adult—usually a peer who is a few years older—to organised crime. As a service, we are working increasingly with young people who have become involved in an inappropriate relationship with someone they have met via Facebook or other social networking sites, so we would have to cover that.
In the course of our work in schools in Glasgow, we are increasingly asked about online grooming. As part of the model that we use in schools, we emphasise to young people that it is happening in their own cities and communities, not just somewhere else. The issue is very visible in our media today, so we need to ensure that teachers are well prepared to deal with it.
- Mark Ballard:
In addition, as Martin Crewe mentioned in his opening statement, the 2003 guidelines—although they contain a lot of useful material—do not deal with Facebook, which was born a year after they were brought in. That is another reason why the guidelines need to be refreshed and updated.
- Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab):
Thank you for coming to give evidence and for sending me a copy of your annual report for 2010-11. Martin Crewe said earlier that action is patchy among different local authorities, and noted the good work that has been done in Glasgow and Dundee. I note from the petition that
“A number of these action points”
for local protocols to be implemented by local authorities
“have yet to be achieved in full and ... should be revisited”.
How many of the 32 local authorities in Scotland have implemented the local protocols?
- Daljeet Dagon:
I am aware of about six. When local protocols and guidelines were established in England, there was a follow-up process by which someone was commissioned to check whether local authorities had actioned them and to find out what action had resulted, but we had no such process. Glasgow established such protocols before the 2003 guidelines came in, followed by Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, North Ayrshire and Renfrewshire.
- Neil Bibby:
It is obvious that updating the guidelines is a major part of what you are suggesting. However, you are also calling for greater follow-up, as there is no point in having guidelines unless local authorities take action. Are you calling for specific mechanisms to ensure that local authorities implement the protocols and the agreed guidelines?
- Daljeet Dagon:
Given that in 2003 each local authority was left to its own devices to decide whether to progress the issue, and that only six—that we are aware of—have done so, it is critical that protocols are followed up to find out what actions are being taken.
- Bill Walker (Dunfermline) (SNP):
Hello, Mr Crewe and colleagues. It is nice to meet you. A recent development that concerns me is the growth in electronic and social media. MSPs can receive some pretty abusive, and even intimidating, e-mails and other stuff. That kind of thing, for adolescent girls in particular, must be pretty difficult. New legislation could not be too specific—as your colleague said, Facebook had not even been invented in 2003. I hope that new legislation will be wide and will refer simply to communication channels and so on.
Perhaps you will confirm that it is no good telling young people not to use their mobile phones—they have to use them. I hope that changes will be wide ranging, but we cannot be too specific about particular technologies.
More generally, this committee can do various things. Would you like us to ask for more evidence, or would you prefer us to refer the issue to the specific parliamentary committee into whose remit this petition appears to fall?
- Martin Crewe:
One reason why we are concentrating on guidance rather than legislation is that the issue is fast moving. We have to understand how young people actually behave. In 20 years of work, we have seen major changes in the way in which the problem manifests itself. Guidance must have a built-in ability to be refreshed fairly regularly.
Mark Ballard will answer your second question.
- Mark Ballard:
Our three broad requests—on new research; on the requirement for local authorities to report back on the extent to which they are delivering on the commitments and action points in the 2003 guidance; and on the refreshing of the 2003 guidance—all fall within the powers of Scottish ministers. Ideally, we would like the committee to take further evidence from other statutory organisations. We think that such evidence would confirm our position that the concern is not one that only Barnardo’s is working on but one that is held more broadly by other organisations such as ACPOS and child protection committees. Intervention could then be sought from the minister in securing action by the Scottish Government.
Other areas would also be interesting to explore—such as post-legislative scrutiny of the 2005 act. As the convener has said, the 2005 act does not seem to have resulted in the expected number of prosecutions. We hope that such scrutiny would follow on from research being commissioned by the Scottish Government, and that a committee would be allowed to consider the research and the evidence, as well as elements of the bill that might need to be revised. Without that research, we feel that any committee would be working in the dark.
- John Wilson (Central Scotland) (SNP):
Good afternoon. I welcome the petition. You have requested that the Scottish Government carry out research into this issue. Why can Barnardo’s, or similar organisations, not undertake research and produce findings that could be presented to the Government for action? I know that other organisations in the voluntary sector carry out their own research, produce findings and ask for action to be taken.
- Mark Ballard:
Barnardo’s has carried out research in this area. In particular, there has been recent research into the links between child sexual exploitation and criminality, and into the economic impacts of child sexual exploitation. We are limited in that we can work only with the young people with whom we come into contact through our services. Research by the Scottish Government would allow work to be done with police forces around the country, with ACPOS and with health services and social work departments. We are carrying out research ourselves, but broader research would allow us to gain a fuller picture, and the Scottish Government is in a position to commission such research. For example, detailed information on court records would not normally be available to voluntary sector researchers.
- John Wilson:
I welcome Mr Ballard’s response with regard to Barnardo’s research and he is right to say that a wider scoping exercise involving other organisations, particularly statutory ones, would be very useful in finding out what is happening out there.
Where are the 2010 guidelines failing? The Scottish Government has already reviewed them and you have indicated your wish for a set of dedicated guidelines in this area. How would such guidelines differ from those issued in 2010, which were supposed to take account of some of the changes resulting from the 2005 legislation?
- Mark Ballard:
Further to my previous answer, I think that it is worth bearing in mind that we want the Scottish Government to take a lead in commissioning research and opening the doors to researchers from academia or other areas. It should not be limited to the Scottish Government’s own internal research capability.
On your second question, although, as I have said, the 2010 guidance makes passing references to child sexual exploitation, it does not deal with the issue in any depth. For example, the guidance refers to child sexual exploitation not in a specific section but simply as a safeguarding issue for children and young people where there is serious or organised abuse of children. As a result, the guidance does not meet the need for a dedicated set of guidelines in this area, particularly, as Daljeet Dagon has highlighted, for professionals.
- Daljeet Dagon:
The guidance dedicates one paragraph to sexual exploitation, and focuses only on online exploitation. The 2003 guidance identified some of the triggers and indicators and was helpful in providing professionals with the tools to understand some of the issues and how they might support young people. The 2010 guidance does not do that. Moreover, the vast majority of young people who are or who have been sexually exploited do not come under child protection guidance—or, at least, not in my experience.
- The Convener:
I am conscious of the time so I ask members to conclude their questioning and to move on to discuss how we might take forward the petition. In light of the evidence that we have heard from our three guests, I recommend that we continue the petition and seek further information in line with the clerk’s paper, in particular the views of the Scottish Government, ACPOS and the child exploitation and online protection centre. Are members agreed on that way forward?
- John Wilson:
I would like to add to the list of organisations from which we might seek information. The panel indicated a number of other organisations that we should contact, including some local authorities, and I suggest that we contact Glasgow, Edinburgh and possibly one of the Highlands authorities just to get a mix of views on what is happening out there. We should also contact some of the NHS boards to find out how they are dealing with this issue and what they are doing to identify the issues that have been highlighted.
I also suggest that, when we ask ACPOS for its views, we should also find out how particular offences have been dealt with. The panel has quite rightly pointed out that there was only one recognised prosecution in Scotland, despite the fact that there were more than 6,000 reports in the UK, according to the last year of recorded data. The figure for prosecutions normally translates to 10 per cent for Scotland. Clearly, we are nowhere near that.
It would be useful to ask ACPOS what offences people are being charged with and how they are being dealt with in the courts if they are not being dealt with under child sexual exploitation legislation, so that we can get an idea of whether the offences that they are being charged with are deemed more serious than what we are dealing with in terms of the petition.
14:30
- The Convener:
John Wilson makes some very helpful comments. In continuing the petition, does the committee agree to add those extra agencies on to the list?
Members indicated agreement.
- The Convener:
Thanks for that. I thank Mr Ballard, Mr Crewe and Ms Dagon for coming along today. It has been very helpful.